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Why do we need to explain ourselves? Yes; it's truly fun and intriguing to ponder our navels, but as an absolute search for "The Truth"? I'll leave that desperate requirement to those theists who have the itch and need. I'm more than happy to accept that, in fact, we'll never know all there is to know*, or that some potentially major items (the Big Bang, etc.) may only ever be just speculative...
So what, huh? Meantime, I have a lawn to mow; far more important!
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* especially when those "absolute" answers provided by, let's say, Answers in Genesis or the Ken Ham 24/7 Comedy Show (aka: The Creationist Institute) are SOOOOOOOO IMPLAUSIBLE!
Physics disproves number 1 and logic discredits option 2.
How does Physics disprove Option #1? I've never come across that claim anywhere except for your post. Does physics dictate that existence must not have existed at some point and that existence arose from nothingness?
Option #3 is also ridiculous because it results in an infinite regression of "causes". What caused the cause? What caused the cause that caused the cause? Who created God? Who created God's creator? Etc.
The "First Cause Argument" is easy to repudiate because it ultimately fails to answer the questions it purports to answer. It appeals to weak-minded people who want to believe in the existence of a deity without asking any questions. Instead of simply accepting that existence exists, they just say, "God exists" and are done with the inquiry without realizing that the same questions they asked of existence also legitimately apply to Gods, only more so (because existence could exist without a God but if a God exists then existence (something) necessarily exists).
Option #1 is really the best and most accurate answer. Just accept that "Existence exists as an objective absolute." Even if a God existed and a God's creator existed (etc.) existence itself would still exist. Existence has primacy over consciousness. Consciousness cannot exist without existence first existing but existence can exist without any consciousness.
Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 07-18-2010 at 11:58 AM..
testimonials are evidence as well...... why dismiss them ?
Because it's possible that the testimonials were not recorded accurately or may have been modified? Is it also possible that a crowd of people predisposed to religious belief misinterpreted what they think they saw or convinced themselves of something that didn't actually happen? What if the story were a conspiracy cooked up by a group of devout followers? "We can claim legitimacy for our religion if we all agree to say that our prophet was resurrected." (Give them credit, it worked.)
The other problem is that when you are talking about supernatural occurrences, you need a large amount of proof. It isn't merely that testimony from 2000 years ago is unreliable, but also that the claims are fantastic and completely contradict all of our knowledge about existence as well as logic. Explain how a magical omniscient and omnipotent being can exist. What is the metaphysical nature of its existence? What is its body composed of? How would something like that even be possible? When you start to ask those kinds of probing questions about claims of supernatural events from mystical people who were already predisposed to religious belief from 2000 years ago, the claims start to lose all credibility.
well, testimonies are valid in court, aren't they ?
Hearsay is a statement by an out-of-court declarant intended to prove the truth of the matter asserted.
Direct testimony from a witness who can be cross-examined is valid testimony. However, if you say, "I know that the airplane was unsafe because my friend Joe said so," in an attempt to demonstrate that the airplane was unsafe, it will be inadmissible because Joe cannot be cross-examined. Merely saying that something is true because someone else said so is not legitimate evidence.
There are some exceptions to the general rule ("hearsay exceptions") and not all statements that could be hearsay are actually hearsay; it depends on what is at issue. For example, the hearsay evidence might be used to show that someone had an agitated state of mind. "I was nervous because Joe said that the airplane was unsafe."
I believe that the original question was "what do you THINK is the cause..." - not "what IS the cause..." There is a reason for that. NOBODY KNOWS! You can argue all day long and say you know that God did it or the Bible is 100% true - but the reason that people have different opinions is because NOBODY KNOWS! There is no solid proof for any of it - if you say there is - it's because of faith, not because of facts. If you choose to believe your faith, you are going with your heart - and that is fine. It is perfectly fine to have faith that God created the universe. That is what you THINK. However, just because other people THINK that there might be a more plausible explanation - it doesn't make them wrong. There is no wrong here - because we DON'T KNOW! If we KNEW - this wouldn't be a question. We would all say the same answer!
I disagree that "there is no wrong here". Some beliefs defy reason and our knowledge of reality. Take the existence of a God, for example. That an omnipotent omniscient being could magically exist without having metaphysical constraints or without having to exist in some sort of a way just defies logic. Additionally, there isn't any hard evidence or reason to believe it available.
I disagree that "there is no wrong here". Some beliefs defy reason and our knowledge of reality. Take the existence of a God, for example. That an omnipotent omniscient being could magically exist without having metaphysical constraints or without having to exist in some sort of a way just defies logic. Additionally, there isn't any hard evidence or reason to believe it available.
Oh - I definitely don't believe in the Christian God. However, - I could be wrong. I don't think I am - but I could be.
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Although the last estimate I have seen is 'only' 13,800,000,000 years. 
All knowing, all seeing. (Who? Steve Jobs?)
