Intown Atlanta Demographic Hypothesis (Sandy Springs, Roswell: low income, renter, HOA)

[arjay57]

I really liked this post and wanted to comment a little further, since the discussion sort of jumped the track.

Originally Posted by equinox63

However, in Kirkwood (for example) [still marginalized] middle class blacks moved into a community that was stripped of its infrastructure.

Just to clarify, what infrastructure was stripped away and how did that happen?

And after spending exponentially more on homes that were worth far less, black Atlantans found it difficult to restore the community as the black version of its former self from scratch.

What's your take on why they paid exponentially more for their homes than they were worth, especially since the sellers were fleeing in panic?

Plus, you had the black flight of families barely above poverty making the move from the slums of Vine City or English Ave. to the opportunities of Kirkwood, East Lake, East Atlanta, or Grant Park, etc. thus flooding the communities with too many people.

If these families were barely above the poverty line, how (and why) were they coming up with money to buy houses at exponentially inflated prices?

Nevertheless, we all know black communities (regardless of class and income) appreciate at a slower rate than comparable white communities. Can anything be done about that? For example, what would a home in Hidden Hills (in Stone Mountain) be worth if the area was all white? Would it be the same if the area was all black with an identical class of resident? I don't know.

Great question. What are the factors that influence home value? Schools? Safety? Maintenance? Location? How are those factors altered if a neighborhood goes from black to white or vice versa, or if simply becomes mixed?

Now my question is about the schools and communities. I believe that most middle class blacks live in the suburbs and would have a difficult time selling a home and moving intown (if they so chose). I believe that the majority of people/families moving into gentrifying intown communities are white. I also believe that the majority of the black people in these gentrifying intown communities are poorer blacks (many of whom have been there for decades). Is this the case? Does Kirkwood or East Lake (for example) generally consist of middle class whites and poorer blacks, and is this truly diverse if middle class black families are not noticeably represented?

Well, you may be right that middle class blacks would have a hard time selling their homes in the suburbs -- I honestly don't know. But assuming that to be the case, you would think that middle class blacks would be capable of moving back into the neighborhoods their families had abandoned, if they chose to do so. A middle class black family should be able to swing a house in Kirkwood as well as a middle class white family. Do you think there is an element of choice involved?

Secondly, in time, with homes of increased value being passed down to their kids, more exposure, and more educational opportunities, do you think the descendants of that population of poorer intown black families (which I feel far exceeds the number of middle class intown black families) become affluent themselves?

One would hope so. You mentioned earlier in your post that some white areas had kept prices up by passing down homes to the next generation. It seems like that could be done by blacks as well.

Ironically, the blacks in middle class suburbia may suffer due to poor schools, nepotism, and a youth mentality that longs to be in the most notorious 'hoods of the City of Atlanta, not knowing that many of the people who live in those notorious 'hoods, are becoming educated and edified.

The decline in some suburban schools is perplexing. For instance, DeKalb County was known throughout the 1960s and 70s as having some of the best schools in the country. Why have so many gone downhill? I know several teachers and administrators who've hung in there for decades, and it's not because the physical plant was abandoned or teacher's salaries were decreased or anything like that.

Additionally, is a place really diverse if it is not also economically diverse? For example, if a community is 50% white, 40% black and 10% other races, yet 80% of those whites are wealthy and 70% of the blacks are poor, is that really a shining example of diversity? [Perhaps if there were more poorer whites and more affluent blacks.] Is this the case in East Lake, Kirkwood, East Atlanta, Edgewood, or Grant Park? It seems that the remnants of white/black flight along with gentrification has caused this sociological conundrum...

I think you're right -- it's valuable to have economic as well other forms of diversity.

It seems that gentrification is a chance for integration to work the way that Dr. King initially intended for it to. But unfortunately, it is hard for the black middle class to participate.

Isn't it possible that the black middle class could participate in gentrification if they chose to? There are many solidly middle class blacks and affluent blacks who can live wherever they choose to live these days? Why not the renovated areas of Kirkwood, East Lake or Grant Park?

[RainyRainyDay]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I really liked this post and wanted to comment a little further, since the discussion sort of jumped the track.



Just to clarify, what infrastructure was stripped away and how did that happen?

What's your take on why they paid exponentially more for their homes than they were worth, especially since the sellers were fleeing in panic?

If these families were barely above the poverty line, how (and why) were they coming up with money to buy houses at exponentially inflated prices?

Great question. What are the factors that influence home value? Schools? Safety? Maintenance? Location? How are those factors altered if a neighborhood goes from black to white or vice versa, or if simply becomes mixed?

arjay57, these earlier questions of yours can all be answered by a reading of the "White Flight" book by Kruse. The post that's prompting your questions was referring to material in the book, about a historical period (1940s to 1960s, mostly). The incoming black families in this scenario were not "barely above the poverty line". Just read the book; it's a worthwhile read.

[MisterNY]

Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay

arjay57, these earlier questions of yours can all be answered by a reading of the "White Flight" book by Kruse. The post that's prompting your questions was referring to material in the book, about a historical period (1940s to 1960s, mostly). The incoming black families in this scenario were not "barely above the poverty line". Just read the book; it's a worthwhile read.

I was under the impression that Arjay57 was looking at providing answers moreso than questions. I'm thinking and hoping we're taking this topic from questions, and historical perspectives (initial stages of this thread) to actual answers/solutions/suggestions etc. That would be ideal.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by RainyRainyDay

arjay57, these earlier questions of yours can all be answered by a reading of the "White Flight" book by Kruse. The post that's prompting your questions was referring to material in the book, about a historical period (1940s to 1960s, mostly). The incoming black families in this scenario were not "barely above the poverty line". Just read the book; it's a worthwhile read.

Rainy,

This is hardly uncharted territory. I read Prof. Kruse's book 5 years ago and have re-read it several times since. It's an excellent treatment of the white flight phenomenon in our city, but this has also been many other books, articles and seminars on white flight over the years. Some of these I've mentioned previously and many more are cited by Kruse in his acknowledgments and notes. I've also reviewed many, many primary materials relevant to these issues. And I grew up in the neighborhoods discussed in this book and literally lived through those tumultuous times firsthand. They left a profound impression on me.

And by the way, you're confusing the origin of the statement about "black families barely above poverty making the move ....to Kirkwood, East Lake, East Atlanta, or Grant Park." That was from the original post -- not from me. My question was how they could buy houses at wildly inflated prices if in fact they were barely poverty.

Take another look.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MisterNY

And maybe the teacher should have the right to bear arms as well.
Your kid would get a cap in ass versus detention.

Of course teachers should have guns in the classroom. It's their absolute constitutional right to bear arms, including in the work place. How are they supposed to protect themselves from unruly students, parents who won't shut up and smart-aleck administrators? Give every teacher a Beretta .40 and see if they don't get the respect they deserve.

I'm not saying they would ever use those weapons. To the contrary, I would expect teachers to be responsible gun owners. It's simply a matter of exercising your constitutional rights.

[RainyRainyDay]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Rainy,

This is hardly uncharted territory. I read Prof. Kruse's book 5 years ago and have re-read it several times since. It's an excellent treatment of the white flight phenomenon in our city, but this has also been many other books, articles and seminars on white flight over the years. Some of these I've mentioned previously and many more are cited by Kruse in his acknowledgments and notes. I've also reviewed many, many primary materials relevant to these issues. And I grew up in the neighborhoods discussed in this book and literally lived through those tumultuous times firsthand. They left a profound impression on me.

And by the way, you're confusing the origin of the statement about "black families barely above poverty making the move ....to Kirkwood, East Lake, East Atlanta, or Grant Park." That was from the original post -- not from me. My question was how they could buy houses at wildly inflated prices if in fact they were barely poverty.

Take another look.

Sorry arjay57, I thought you were mixing up content about different time periods in the earlier post, which I'd evidently misremembered. I will retire in confusion, now.

[theknowitall]

Wow. The original poster is truly clueless about what drives market prices. I lived in mostly white gated community which had only a few black families. Then one day, the guy in the place behind me couldn't sell it so the renters moved in. It was a black lady and her child....... and a few cousins. Then the basketball hoop went.......then the loud thumping music at all hours the night. When asked to lower the volume, we were met with hostility and accused of racism. 3 months later, 2 of our neighbors put their homes up for sale and i'm about to walk away from mine. Any questions about why white people do not want to live with black neighbors? And this was not my first experience either. Anyone on this board ever live in an apartment complex when a black neighbor moved in next door or above them? I hate to be racist. But, when you have the same experience over and over again, its not racism. Its just the truth.

[atlyoungin]

Originally Posted by theknowitall

Wow. The original poster is truly clueless about what drives market prices. I lived in mostly white gated community which had only a few black families. Then one day, the guy in the place behind me couldn't sell it so the renters moved in. It was a black lady and her child....... and a few cousins. Then the basketball hoop went.......then the loud thumping music at all hours the night. When asked to lower the volume, we were met with hostility and accused of racism. 3 months later, 2 of our neighbors put their homes up for sale and i'm about to walk away from mine. Any questions about why white people do not want to live with black neighbors? And this was not my first experience either. Anyone on this board ever live in an apartment complex when a black neighbor moved in next door or above them? I hate to be racist. But, when you have the same experience over and over again, its not racism. Its just the truth.

So besides the fact that you're being overly stereotypical and ignoring other races (including whites) who can be problem neighbors you and the two other neighbors of your ilk or so cowardly and fearful that you let the dribble of a basketball and music scare you so much that you're going to "walk away" from your home. That's pretty sad.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by atlyoungin

So besides the fact that you're being overly stereotypical and ignoring other races (including whites) who can be problem neighbors you and the two other neighbors of your ilk or so cowardly and fearful that you let the dribble of a basketball and music scare you so much that you're going to "walk away" from your home. That's pretty sad.

I agree that that alone would be a cowardly reason to move, but you seem to be ignoring this portion:

"When asked to lower the volume, we were met with hostility and accused of racism."

[tonygeorgia]

I'm scared to move to North Atlanta. Too many child molesters there for me