Disintegration: The Splintering of Black America (Atlanta, White: student loans, to live in, move)
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I have never posted in this forum before, but your post caught my attention and is worthy of a good hearted response. I understand your frustrations, and believe it or not, I understand that if it wasn't for black Americans having gone through the civil rights movement, then my family would never have had the things we have today. In that sense I can look up to people like MLK and Malcom X the same way I look up to Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko. I agree that alot of Africans take the struggles which African Americans went through for granted, and probably will never show any appreciation for it. I choose to, and I know that the majority of my family members hold no ill feelings towards any other groups of blacks with the exception of Nigerians (if you were African, you would understand why).
I don't really care if you think that we are different, or if we come across as narcissists because at the end of the day we are all still part of the African diaspora. Have you ever read posts on South Africa and seen how whites who have no relation to that region are so quick to defend white South Africans? Surely it's not because they care about South Africa or Africa as a whole, but merely because they both descend from Europeans. That is the same way I feel about blacks in America and anytime an ignorant white person comes to me with the "you're much better than the black American" bs, I am always on the side of my black American brothers and sisters.
In regards to my family having it easy, I would beg to differ and take offense to your comments. Both of my parents were born under colonialism on the outskirts of an African city. No running water, no electricity, no unique schooling options. They went from that to having a standard of living higher than 90% of Americans, so if that is easy to you, then we are obviously living in two different worlds. My mother doesn't care if you're Caribbean, African, or African American, she feels a connection to other women who are black and raised me accordingly so I can hold no ill feelings towards you as you seem to hold onto me.
I have never pretended to fully understand black American culture, and could care less if you don't care much for African culture. It is do diverse and rich that you have no concept of what African culture is. I only ask that you keep an open mind when referring to a group of people who are split into over 50 different countries with an array of different customs, languages, and traditions. I hope that one day you will be able to overcome the preconceived notions you have of Africans, and that you will not let isolated incidents deter you away from connecting with some of them. I would suggest talking to females who were born in Africa, as they are usually the nicest of the bunch. Anyways, take care...
Another good post. Great debate going on.
I would also like to add that Africans do not look down on Black Americans. I know for my folks it was more about not comprehending why it appeared AAs don't take advantage of opportunities here.
Most who have been here a long time like my parents realize that if not for them it's highly unlikely they would be here.
Another thing we are not comparing equal groups per se. Africans who can obtain a US Visa are generally wealthier or smarter than the average African. My dad came here on a student visa example.
So the African immigrants are self selected for motivation and middle class values. If one studied the slums of Lagos or Accra you would see similar pathologies exhibited there as you do in the inner city.
How do you know my background you ignorant and insulting little man.
I am originally from the Mideast. Sephardic. Not even remotely European.
You say that your race and culture 'correlate with shared histories and experiences'? Puhleeze! You know as much about other cultures as Kim Jong Il does about food production.
What people in your so-called culture essentially do is take the history that 'other people have lived' and somehow, it makes you entitled to denigrate and insult other people unlike you in skin tone. As if you're some superior being due to your skin pigmentation.
You are every bit the ignorant bigot of a white Southern racist... except your worse. A man who should know better.
'Rugged individualism' is a western construct? Really? How would the Chinese of the modern day feel about your view that they have historically embraced 'communalism'. FYI, most Eastern countries have historically embraced feudalism for thousands of years... which is as close to communalism as mustard is from ketchup.
In the modern era, it's capitalism that's enabled countries like China, South Korea, Japan, India, and Singapore to leave your phony constructs in the dust.
Africa is still largely a continent of dictatorships... to say that most developed African countries embraced communalism is quite a laugher. You're saying that from Egypt to Morocco to South Africa, it's communalism that binds them together? Perhaps you mean tribalism. But that's not far of a jump to nationalist beliefs... which in practice are every bit as stupid and self-defeating as your racialist beliefs.
You apparently have never been to the bazaars and markets throughout Africa where haggling and negotiations are central to economic survival. Or the ports where very large and sophisticated businesses are run by... get this... private enterprise. The governments may take the tariff, and the duty, and the bribe. But even before their were governments related to the modern age, their was trade and commerce as the center of economic activity and cultural exchange.
My family has been involved in the food import business for hundreds of years. We employ hundreds who continue a way of life that has stretched for millenia.
The politicians may largely be corrupt and 'tribes' may have been the dominating force in less developed areas of Africa. But to say that communalism is what binds you to African or Eastern culture is beyond ridiculous. It's a myth.
Please spare your 'communal brush' from the Koom-bah-ya crap you stereotype them as.
In truth, you are just another one of those badly educated, ignorant, financially unsuccessful and 'entitled' morons that believes race defines you as a human being.
...and the white folk don't care at all. Even the white ones from the East.
Wait a minute I thought Sephardi were Spaniards/Portuguese?
"In the modern era, it's capitalism that's enabled countries like China, South Korea, Japan, India, and Singapore to leave your phony constructs in the dust.
Africa is still largely a continent of dictatorships... to say that most developed African countries embraced communalism is quite a laugher. You're saying that from Egypt to Morocco to South Africa, it's communalism that binds them together? Perhaps you mean tribalism. But that's not far of a jump to nationalist beliefs... which in practice are every bit as stupid and self-defeating as your racialist beliefs."
Tribalism usually leads to internal strife within a country. Rwanda's Hutu & Tutsi conflicts are obviously the most extreme example of the modern era in Africa. But even a historically peaceful country like Kenya can have flare-up's due to the general abuse and brainwashing of an ignorant people.
Nationalism can actually lead to unity and prosperity when...
1) All the people are included and
2) The ideals are closely aligned with high standards for morality and excellence.
South Korea would likely be the best modern example of this. South Korea is a highly homogeneous society that values education, hard work, and honor. As a result of this and many other factors including...
A) Property rights
B) Scientific rationalism
C) Capital markets
D) Transportation and communication
The South Koreans have become an affluent society.
But there is obviously a double edged sword to this. Nationalism often leads to the exclusion and discrimination of minority groups. The ideas of those groups are also rejected as well, which hurts in an economic and cultural sense.
The Iranian government's promotion of a fascist and theocratic form of nationalism, and the institutional discrimination that this 'faith' promotes throughout the country, has lead to poverty and hardship for virtually all Iranian citizens who aren't strongly connected to the government.
As for Africa, most African countries have virtually none of the four factors mentioned above working for them. South Africa may be the sole exception to this. But the socialist beliefs of an elite nationalist group (ANC) are pretty much destroying any long-term hope for prosperity.
If I can root this behavior down to one cause, it would be what I call 'Societal Acceptance of Change'
Development inevitably changes the power structure. People who were poor and without power find that they now have power. People who had traditional power may find they now have much less or none. If the society is not willing to accept changes built on investment and efficiency of the scientific method, they will likely not develop.
To be blunt and insulting about it, the dictators in Africa tend to be well armed and hire the brightest minds to do the dictator's bidding. The majority of the citizens in these countries are usually too tribal, traditional and illiterate.
As for the little minds that responded to my earlier posts, black nationalism is really nothing more than tribalism with a thuggish intent. If the African part of your life is genuinely more important than the American, then it's well past time you simply went back to Africa.
there's so many things wrong with this post.
1. Your have a sprew and over generalize view of cultures, and nations. Then people have different views on what is and what's not nationalism base on their Political ideology. This thread is not base on politics so it's not worth bringing up, it's off topic.
2. You said Black Atlantans want people to feel sorry for them, which already, un justify, a sample error lead, and Hasty generalize racist comment. And no one said anything political about what black need. But a racist labeling people racist is just silly. It's so funny your so quick to point out people for bringing race up but your the first to bluntly say something that actually racist.
3. I said no one is a black parther here, no poster in this thead support black nationalism so far anyways, you can go ahead and quit. I proably would beat you to them aways cause I don't support that crap anyway, I said severals times I don't support black agreeing on everything, "head and the sand" . Then even the little thuggish comment is a extra racist insert.
4. No one black said they want to go to Africa to be African. Some blacks simply said they want to learn there ancestry, as a American being a American, who every has the right to act how the hell they want! that call being American. Now how about you go to a monolithic country some where, where you wouldn't have to weary about diversity and people having the freedom of speech among others.
[quote=chiatldal;17093886]there's so many things wrong with this post.
1. Your have a sprew and over generalize view of cultures, and nations. Then people have different views on what is and what's not nationalism base on their Political ideology. This thread is not base on politics so it's not worth bringing up, it's off topic.
No, nationalism is a belief in the perceived 'ideals and principles' of the nation. As I showed in my numerous examples, it does have a very direct effect.
2. You said Black Atlantans want people to feel sorry for them, which already, un justify, a sample error lead, and Hasty generalize racist comment. And no one said anything political about what black need. But a racist labeling people racist is just silly. It's so funny your so quick to point out people for bringing race up but your the first to bluntly say something that actually racist.
I never said that. Cite the source and learn to write.
3. I said no one is a black parther here, no poster in this thead support black nationalism so far anyways, you can go ahead and quit. I proably would beat you to them aways cause I don't support that crap anyway, I said severals times I don't support black agreeing on everything, "head and the sand" . Then even the little thuggish comment is a extra racist insert.
No... not at all...
From wikipedia
"Critics charge that African nationalism is simply African supremacism in disguise, and some argue that the implication of inherent cultures or unity based on race (a central idea of African nationalism) is itself racist."
I agree with that view. I find the comments directed at me and other 'white folk' here to be no different than the white power side of the racist coin.
They are both racist and repugnant ideologies that completely ignore the fact that 'race' is a myth.
4. No one black said they want to go to Africa to be African. Some blacks simply said they want to learn there ancestry, as a American being a American, who every has the right to act how the hell they want! that call being American. Now how about you go to a monolithic country some where, where you wouldn't have to weary about diversity and people having the freedom of speech among others.
Certain misguided folks definitely appear to define themselves by their so-called 'race' first. That's their stupid decision. Thankfully the only race that matters is the human one.
As for 'diversity'. That's nothing more than a code word used in the inner-city of Atlanta for 'black'. If you believed in diversity, you wouldn't use the word to shuck around a bigoted viewpoint.
You hate my words? Fine. Just as long as you never hold any position of importance, I really could care less.
Now go read my last post and consider how society's prosper. You may realize at some point that I consider genuine 'diversity' to be a strength.
So, going back to the original post and assuming that Robinson is correct that there is an abandoned black minority with less hope of escaping poverty than at any time since Reconstruction's end, how do we go about fixing that problem? Do any of the other groups of black Americans have a particular insight or contribution to offer in that respect? Or is it simply a generalized social issue where one person's perspective is as good as another?
1. Your have a sprew and over generalize view of cultures, and nations. Then people have different views on what is and what's not nationalism base on their Political ideology. This thread is not base on politics so it's not worth bringing up, it's off topic.
No, nationalism is a belief in the perceived 'ideals and principles' of the nation. As I showed in my numerous examples, it does have a very direct effect.
I said 'people have different views on what is and what's not nationalism base on their Political ideology" and you comeback with "nationalism is a belief in the perceived 'ideals and principles' of the nation." Well people perceive what is and what's not "ideals and principles' of a nation" base on their political ideology. ) Then whether or not it's effective is due to political views but no matter it’s still OFF TOPIC TO THIS THREAD.
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2. You said Black Atlantans want people to feel sorry for them, which already, un justify, a sample error lead, and Hasty generalize racist comment. And no one said anything political about what black need. But a racist labeling people racist is just silly. It's so funny your so quick to point out people for bringing race up but your the first to bluntly say something that actually racist.
I never said that. Cite the source and learn to write.
Ok 2 pages back 12-19-2010, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by macarose
. don't make me laugh. Diversity in Atlanta is nothing more than a code word for a small segment of 'holier than thou' African-Americans who want everyone to feel sorry for them.
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They are both racist and repugnant ideologies that completely ignore the fact that 'race' is a myth.
Again I said race don't exist most Americans don't believe in scientific racism and the world is divide simply by skin color. But what I said it's used as a idom for background which does exist. If you
completely delete the word race altogether "if it's call pickle" there still would be a word for background and heritage in the same manner. To the majority of people that used the word it's use the way ethnicity is used. People of different backgrounds may have different family tradition, Celebration and etc. And there nothing wrong with that.
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4. No one black said they want to go to Africa to be African. Some blacks simply said they want to learn there ancestry, as a American being a American, who every has the right to act how the hell they want! that call being American. Now how about you go to a monolithic country some where, where you wouldn't have to weary about diversity and people having the freedom of speech among others.
Certain misguided folks definitely appear to define themselves by their so-called 'race' first. That's their stupid decision. Thankfully the only race that matters is the human one.
umm Ok? Again some people like burger king some people like Mcdonalds but we all human one. ) You have bad intercultural competence, these backgrounds become division to you. Because your bad at getting along with people of diffrent background again it's not them it's you. I don't care if someone openly celebrate their heritage or not because I know how to get along with people of different backgrounds that do. I have said there's many factor that drives human action, heritage is a small part that can influences amongst many. I never said it’s the most important I said it's there it's no big deal to me. Diversity is part of being Human.
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As for 'diversity'. That's nothing more than a code word used in the inner-city of Atlanta for 'black'. If you believed in diversity, you wouldn't use the word to shuck around a bigoted viewpoint.
You hate my words? Fine. Just as long as you never hold any position of importance, I really could care less.
And this come from a racist to me wow! How about this word play, I don't care for your words I'm just pointing out there "hate word"
The truth is you probably get call a racist often because your disrespectful to different cultures, the trick is your trying to make diversity the problem, no the problem is you. First off diversity can't be something all black, 2nd I encourage not only people to learn their own heritage but everyone to learn a little about each heritage. Your encouraging poor intercultural competence. Ethnocentrism is judging other cultures by yours own if you don’t believe in other cultures to even acknowledge others, your strongly ethnocentric.
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Now go read my last post and consider how society's prosper. You may realize at some point that I consider genuine 'diversity' to be a strength.
You believe in diversity in a don't ask don't tell sense. Then remember it's a code from the 'holier than thou' blacks of Atlanta, also you said you believe "'race' is a myth" but yet your not to shy to mention race to say something neative, other words to make a racist comment. hmmm
So, going back to the original post and assuming that Robinson is correct that there is an abandoned black minority with less hope of escaping poverty than at any time since Reconstruction's end, how do we go about fixing that problem? Do any of the other groups of black Americans have a particular insight or contribution to offer in that respect? Or is it simply a generalized social issue where one person's perspective is as good as another?
Well I'm a black american so other blacks whould have to answer. But a small number of blacks will more than likely stay in poverty. Absolute zero poverty doesn’t exist even among whites. Though I still believe the numbers can be lower than what it is. The Black graduating rates in some places needs to increase.
So, going back to the original post and assuming that Robinson is correct that there is an abandoned black minority with less hope of escaping poverty than at any time since Reconstruction's end, how do we go about fixing that problem? Do any of the other groups of black Americans have a particular insight or contribution to offer in that respect? Or is it simply a generalized social issue where one person's perspective is as good as another?
I think a more stable family structure will have to be promoted and embraced. And this might sound silly, far-fetched, or unreasonable, but I also think that more successful and educated Blacks need to get married and have more children. It's simply a function of numbers at that point.
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) Then whether or not it's effective is due to political views but no matter it’s still OFF TOPIC TO THIS THREAD.
) You have bad intercultural competence, these backgrounds become division to you. Because your bad at getting along with people of diffrent background again it's not them it's you. I don't care if someone openly celebrate their heritage or not because I know how to get along with people of different backgrounds that do. I have said there's many factor that drives human action, heritage is a small part that can influences amongst many. I never said it’s the most important I said it's there it's no big deal to me. Diversity is part of being Human. 
