Rep. Lewis: DOT will fund Atlanta streetcar project (Marietta, Avera: apartments, how much)

[mike7586]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

My question is...how does this streetcar effect create 5,000 jobs?

Because it helps spur businesses and residential development because it creates easier access to certain areas that people otherwise wouldn't walk to (or walk that far to). Restaurants and stores create jobs, and investing in Downtown (along with the streetscape projects) will help lure businesses back Downtown. Streetcars are also perceived to be "better" than buses and because the route is fixed (pretty much a big loop) it is easier to figure out, therefor more people would be willing to ride it. The construction of the line will also create temporary jobs, as well as permanent jobs to run and maintain it.

I'm sorry if you and others cannot comprehend this, but it is pretty easy to see if you open your eyes a bit. I know I will use it when I am Downtown... it will be much easier to go check out the Sweet Auburn Market and I'm sure over time, more businesses will open up along the route, turning a somewhat abandoned area with potential into a vibrant place. Just because there isn't much there right now, doesn't mean there never will be in the future. You have to lay the groundwork... if the city invests, businesses will follow.

And macarose, if you want to speed through Downtown, take one of the parallel one way streets that are designed to move traffic more than Peachtree or use the highway.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by mike7586

Because it helps spur businesses and residential development because it creates easier access to certain areas that people otherwise wouldn't walk to (or walk that far to). Restaurants and stores create jobs, and investing in Downtown (along with the streetscape projects) will help lure businesses back Downtown. Streetcars are also perceived to be "better" than buses and because the route is fixed (pretty much a big loop) it is easier to figure out, therefor more people would be willing to ride it. The construction of the line will also create temporary jobs, as well as permanent jobs to run and maintain it.

I'm sorry if you and others cannot comprehend this, but it is pretty easy to see if you open your eyes a bit. I know I will use it when I am Downtown... it will be much easier to go check out the Sweet Auburn Market and I'm sure over time, more businesses will open up along the route, turning a somewhat abandoned area with potential into a vibrant place. Just because there isn't much there right now, doesn't mean there never will be in the future. You have to lay the groundwork... if the city invests, businesses will follow.

But is it the proper function of government to take taxpayer money and invest it in a somewhat abandoned area, as you put it, to lure businesses back downtown? Or should government use taxpayer money where the taxpayers live and work to improve their quality of life? What criteria should people in government follow when they are allocating resources? If they do spend money in a somewhat abandoned area, what sort of accountability is there? Who actually receives the money, and what sort of followup is done to to determine whether goals were actually met?

I say this as someone who loves streetcars and thinks they are fun and cool, but also as someone who, like many people, is struggling to stay afloat and is very concerned about getting a clear and specific bang for our very limited bucks.

[macarose]

"Because it helps spur businesses and residential development because it creates easier access to certain areas that people otherwise wouldn't walk to (or walk that far to). Restaurants and stores create jobs, and investing in Downtown (along with the streetscape projects) will help lure businesses back Downtown."

You just described this as a zero-sum project.

If people have to move to enjoy these things, what's the point?

[mike7586]

Originally Posted by macarose

"Because it helps spur businesses and residential development because it creates easier access to certain areas that people otherwise wouldn't walk to (or walk that far to). Restaurants and stores create jobs, and investing in Downtown (along with the streetscape projects) will help lure businesses back Downtown."

You just described this as a zero-sum project.

If people have to move to enjoy these things, what's the point?

Huh? How is it a zero-sum project if it spurs economic development?

Not only will it help move workers, students at GSU, and current and future residents throughout Downtown, but it will also move tourists and connect all the major stuff together. Tourism is a billion dollar industry for Atlanta (especially conventions) which means JOBS. And I would argue it increases quality of life because it helps create a more vibrant city which is exciting and good for our economy.

Not everyone is going to agree on what is the best way to use taxpayer money and you can't please everyone - it's impossible and I'm sorry you don't see the benefit of this project.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by mike7586

Huh? How is it a zero-sum project if it spurs economic development?

Not only will it help move workers, students at GSU, and current and future residents throughout Downtown, but it will also move tourists and connect all the major stuff together. Tourism is a billion dollar industry for Atlanta (especially conventions) which means JOBS. And I would argue it increases quality of life because it helps create a more vibrant city which is exciting and good for our economy.

Not everyone is going to agree on what is the best way to use taxpayer money and you can't please everyone - it's impossible and I'm sorry you don't see the benefit of this project.

The key is that it has to CREATE wealth. Restaurants and shops don't really create wealth but rather go after disposable income, which denies it to other areas of Atlanta. For example, opening a new mall won't create wealth just deny other retailers some business. If a 2.6-mile streetcar route significantly boosts tourism, then we might get that 5,000 jobs. If it merely shifts tourist dollars and jobs then we have a zero-sum game. If it attracts companies from around the country or better yet encourages startups along the route, then a streetcar is a good idea. If it was, the MARTA rail route should be wildly successful with bustling industries at all its stops. But what we see at Lindberg now was spearheaded by MARTA itself and not some sort of organic market driven growth. I'm reluctant to credit a streetcar as an economic engine unless it provides an unmet transportation service. Sadly, cars and roads are better.

Don't get me wrong, I like rail, but I see it more as an alternative for congested corridors like Peachtree. I wish they'd restore the old streetcar line from Atlanta to Marietta. I-75 is a choke point in Atlanta's transportation network no matter how wide they make it. I think this streetcar project is politically motivated rather than serving a true transportation need.

[koko339]

Here's a neat idea for how the downtown streetcar could be but the beginning of a revived streetcar network in Atlanta. One could ride from Atlantic Station to the Edgewood corridor, if one felt like it .
A Streetcar Named Opportunity : the revision|CLOUD

[MathmanMathman]

I question if this initial phase will spur further development. A Peachtree route that goes to Atlantic Station, circles around Georgia Tech and loops back to Five Points at Peachtree might be a better start. The amount of initial use will be important to justify expansion.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

I question if this initial phase will spur further development. A Peachtree route that goes to Atlantic Station, circles around Georgia Tech and loops back to Five Points at Peachtree might be a better start. The amount of initial use will be important to justify expansion.

I think you have to factor in the political realities. Whether something is "good" for the city in terms of planning is not necessarily the way projects are prioritized.

[cwkimbro]

Well I hate to say it... but the E-W route was selected, because it is short and cheap and just happened to match the amount of money the city thought it could bid for and win. Also, it is important to keep in mind where funding comes from locally. I keep hearing metro wide complaining (I'm from Gwinnett... its what many in Gwinnett do... complain)... the local part is being paid for by the city and a fairly sizable part from the Downtown CID, so part of what is going on is they put the money down on it and they put the money down, because it will benefit them in increase land value/business.

The problem with extending around GT... That is a whole lot of track for very little amounts of redevelopment space and few, if any, will put the money down to do it or see the property values go up. For a segment like that to exist it would ultimately be created from something like the Cobb LRT trying to access DT and they might want a slightly different alignment. That corridor looks like it would benefit more from enhanced bus service given it's potential for some increase in residential density, but it's small relative size that only so much can really go there.

I like Marietta st. It is an interesting place in town, but it is also small, limited access, and lacks the organizations to put money down and benefit from it.

I doubt GT would ever have the cash or would want to help pay for a streetcar connection, but if they ever did.. I suspect they would rather do it through 5th st into midtown or along 10th st.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

The problem with extending around GT... That is a whole lot of track for very little amounts of redevelopment space and few, if any, will put the money down to do it or see the property values go up.

Why does it have to be redevelopment space? I'd rather put down track in developed places (or at least largely developed) where people want to go than sending a streetcar to nowhere in the hopes developers are anxious to build along the route.

I like Marietta st. It is an interesting place in town, but it is also small, limited access, and lacks the organizations to put money down and benefit from it.

Seems no worse than other streets. It goes past (close) the Aquarium, World of Coca-Cola, CNN Center and the other stuff near Centennial Park. So a route could cover the heart of Peachtree (Fox theater, High Museum), Atlantic Station, West of Georgia Tech, the Aquarium, WoCC, Centennial, CNN Center/Phillips, and Five Points covers both Underground and Georgia State U. And other stuff is hoped for in that area including the College Football Hall of Fame.

I doubt GT would ever have the cash or would want to help pay for a streetcar connection, but if they ever did.. I suspect they would rather do it through 5th st into midtown or along 10th st.

Well Tech uses there Buses and "Trolleys" so they don't seem to be interested in rail on their campus.