Rep. Lewis: DOT will fund Atlanta streetcar project (Buckhead: transfer, taxes)
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I think it came down to this. If you're ever going to get streetcars going in Atlanta, you've gotta start somewhere. This route may not have been optimal from a transportation or development standpoint but it was politically palatable. If you'd started with a line from downtown to Midtown, or Midtown to Buckhead, folks would have howled and it would never have gotten out of city council.
Well keep in mind too.. the reason the location and the price for that location was set has alot to do with where funding comes from...
A greater portion of the local matching funds are coming straight from the Downtown CIDs. They want it and are willing to put money down on it, because they see it as a valuable tool for their area.
It isn't like the region or the state at large are putting any money on this.
There might be a good argument to be made on the federal spending level, but they do have a competitive bidding process for federal funds.
And there is developed stretch in Buckhead with no rail service.
I've been here before the MARTA rail lines were built. The rail lines follow the more desirable areas of Atlanta to begin with and I'm suggesting that it is a perception that the rail is encouraging development. But in fact it is not.
Basically government has to structure land use to encourage development around rail stations. The presence of rail itself doesn't attract development.
The core office development and the most desirable area in Buckhead is clearly built in close proximity to the two rail stations. That area is definitely more densely developed with office space/property values than neighboring areas like the Buckhead Village.
"but in fact it is not".... umm You are essentially arguing MARTA rail has nothing to do with being near heavily developed locations, because it was already placed into desirable areas for development... there is some truth to this... even I already addressed this, but the "fact" is you can't completely partial out the data to prove it one way or another... so I'm sorry... but in --fact-- you have proven no 'fact.'
You are correct in your last comment "Basically government has to structure land use to encourage development around rail stations. The presence of rail itself doesn't attract development." No one ever tried to argue it wasn't... like I said it takes government to build the other infrastructure required for denser development and the zoning... but that alone doesn't prove that the rail line doesn't have an effect on the desirability of the area for development.
The article about a study you show.... even spots out it's own flaws. Denser residential developments tried to build near one station, but was prevented from local zoning. However, that also directly showed that private development was attracted to the proximity of the rail station, even if there was another barrier in place blocking them. I read that... and to me it weakens the overall premise that building MARTA rail has no impact.
But when you look at the areas around Lindbergh, midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter... and say MARTA rail has no impact on development... I just have trouble buying that argument.
The core office development and the most desirable area in Buckhead is clearly built in close proximity to the two rail stations. That area is definitely more densely developed with office space/property values than neighboring areas like the Buckhead Village.
"but in fact it is not".... umm You are essentially arguing MARTA rail has nothing to do with being near heavily developed locations, because it was already placed into desirable areas for development... there is some truth to this... even I already addressed this, but the "fact" is you can't completely partial out the data to prove it one way or another... so I'm sorry... but in --fact-- you have proven no 'fact.
You are correct in your last comment "Basically government has to structure land use to encourage development around rail stations. The presence of rail itself doesn't attract development." No one ever tried to argue it wasn't... like I said it takes government to build the other infrastructure required for denser development and the zoning... but that alone doesn't prove that the rail line doesn't have an effect on the desirability of the area for development.
The article about a study you show.... even spots out it's own flaws. Denser residential developments tried to build near one station, but was prevented from local zoning. However, that also directly showed that private development was attracted to the proximity of the rail station, even if there was another barrier in place blocking them. I read that... and to me it weakens the overall premise that building MARTA rail has no impact.
But when you look at the areas around Lindbergh, midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter... and say MARTA rail has no impact on development... I just have trouble buying that argument.
The development around Buckhead near Lenox Square is largely due to 400. That is also true of Lindbergh (the government/MARTA orchestrated development notwithstanding) and Perimeter's development is also because of 400. Buckhead is becoming a business center so hotels locate near its rail station to receive travelers from the airport, But absent 400, this stuff doesn't happen. Even Atlantic Station didn't need rail to happen but it sure needs roads.
The development around Buckhead near Lenox Square is largely due to 400. That is also true of Lindbergh (the government/MARTA orchestrated development notwithstanding) and Perimeter's development is also because of 400. Buckhead is becoming a business center so hotels locate near its rail station to receive travelers from the airport, But absent 400, this stuff doesn't happen. Even Atlantic Station didn't need rail to happen but it sure needs roads.
What is the daily passenger count at the various MARTA stations? I've seen a list in the past but don't remember where it was.
The development around Buckhead near Lenox Square is largely due to 400. That is also true of Lindbergh (the government/MARTA orchestrated development notwithstanding) and Perimeter's development is also because of 400. Buckhead is becoming a business center so hotels locate near its rail station to receive travelers from the airport, But absent 400, this stuff doesn't happen. Even Atlantic Station didn't need rail to happen but it sure needs roads.
I'm not arguing that the road system isn't part of it what makes an area friendly to development, but that area wouldn't be what it is on that alone. All of the most built up areas this city has have access to both. They aren't the areas where there is only one, but not the other.
Atlantic station isn't right at Arts Center station, but it is close by. The developer runs a shuttle constantly to and from Arts Center station to provide that connection from 5am to 1am. They also went out of their way to provide a bus only lane to ensure traffic does not slow down that connection.
This, yet again, is an example that shows how much the developers value that connection.
I'm not arguing that the road system isn't part of it what makes an area friendly to development, but that area wouldn't be what it is on that alone. All of the most built up areas this city has have access to both. They aren't the areas where there is only one, but not the other.
I'm just saying that the build up was due to the roads. Rail provides alternative access and followed the development due to the road if the development is dense enough. Rail needs the road. It's not a partnership.
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Atlantic station isn't right at Arts Center station, but it is close by. The developer runs a shuttle constantly to and from Arts Center station to provide that connection from 5am to 1am. They also went out of their way to provide a bus only lane to ensure traffic does not slow down that connection.
This, yet again, is an example that shows how much the developers value that connection.
Yes, but those shuttles are tiny. We're not talking bus size here. I've ridden it myself, wasting time quite frankly waiting. I probably could have walked in the time it took for one to arrive. They are a minute contribution and those shuttles are not moving "suits" exactly.
I'm just saying that the build up was due to the roads. Rail provides alternative access and followed the development due to the road if the development is dense enough. Rail needs the road. It's not a partnership.
You and cwkimbro both make some valid points. However, I tend to agree with you that the roads are the critical element. We have rail going a lot of places where it has done little to spur development.
And in many of the areas where development has been intense there is no rail. Atlantic Station, Cumberland/Galleria, Alpharetta are all good examples of this. On the residential side, most neighborhoods have thrived without rail.
Rail is a nice amenity for developers to advertise but I think the evidence that it really drives development in our town is slight. While it might be a key factor in some cities, most of our development seems to have followed its own path and been primarily based on auto access. Maybe the streetcar will be an exception to that.
You and cwkimbro both make some valid points. However, I tend to agree with you that the roads are the critical element. We have rail going a lot of places where it has done little to spur development.
And in many of the areas where development has been intense there is no rail. Atlantic Station, Cumberland/Galleria, Alpharetta are all good examples of this. On the residential side, most neighborhoods have thrived without rail.
Rail is a nice amenity for developers to advertise but I think the evidence that it really drives development in our town is slight. While it might be a key factor in some cities, most of our development seems to have followed its own path and been primarily based on auto access. Maybe the streetcar will be an exception to that.
Arjay, I have to agree with you - it's hard to see what development rail has driven in Atlanta other than, perhaps, the legacy BellSouth developments, in particular Lindberg. However, I keep my fingers and hold onto hope that we will gradually become more railcentric around these parts.
You and cwkimbro both make some valid points. However, I tend to agree with you that the roads are the critical element. We have rail going a lot of places where it has done little to spur development.
And in many of the areas where development has been intense there is no rail. Atlantic Station, Cumberland/Galleria, Alpharetta are all good examples of this. On the residential side, most neighborhoods have thrived without rail.
Rail is a nice amenity for developers to advertise but I think the evidence that it really drives development in our town is slight. While it might be a key factor in some cities, most of our development seems to have followed its own path and been primarily based on auto access. Maybe the streetcar will be an exception to that.
While I'll agree that the City and developers have not explicitly stated that proximity to rail is a deciding factor in development, it still happened anyway. In other words it was more organic, which can be just as good as specific municipal policy since it has basically the same effect.
Thanks to a thread you started Arjay ( ), I remembered a piece of data from a post that had the growth rate of each NPU from 2000 to 2008. I remembered from the time that the three NPUs with the largest amount of growth were the following:
NPU B (Brookhaven Buckhead Forest Buckhead Village East Chastain Park Garden Hills Lenox Lindbergh/Morosgo North Buckhead Peachtree Heights East Peachtree Heights West Peachtree Hills Peachtree Park Pine Hills Ridgedale Park South Tuxedo Park) gained 18,365 residents
NPU E (Ansley Park Ardmore Atlantic Station Brookwood Brookwood Hills Georgia Tech Home Park Loring Heights Marietta Street Artery Midtown Sherwood Forest) gained 14,229 residents
NPU M (Castleberry Hill Downtown Old Fourth Ward) gained 11,311 residents
I don't think it is any coincidence that those three NPUs have the largest amount of in district train stations, and if you were to do a correlation of where the most growth occurred it was most likely all around train stations.
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), I remembered a piece of data from a post that had the growth rate of each NPU from 2000 to 2008. I remembered from the time that the three NPUs with the largest amount of growth were the following:
