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Old 11-06-2010, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,681 posts, read 9,717,791 times
Reputation: 3209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
What I see is a bunch of middle age people that have are no longer concerned with economic growth and don't care about transportation growth as they are near retirement age. What they want now is just low as possible taxes, so they can take more cruises and whatnot. But, the problem with this philosophy is that it ignores that investments from their parents and grandparents generations gave them what they wanted and what they thought would make this society great.
You must hang around different "middle age people" than I do, and I'm 45 years old.

What I see are people who work hard at their jobs, work hard at their small business, work hard at expanding the economy, only to be berated and punished at every turn with rhetoric, new taxes, or new regulations.

I just love when people spout rhetoric about "investment" and try to make the case that the money gov't spends is like putting money in your 401K. It's not, and when my parents and grandparents were alive and in society, there wasn't 50% of earners not paying any taxes. There weren't millions of illegals and other people living off the taxes paid by others. The size of the federal and state gov'ts was considerably smaller.

What we need is everyone paying taxes. We need a flat tax that takes the same percentage from every person, regardless of age, sex, religion, economic status, or political affiliation. If a person makes more, then they pay more. We also need to roll back the proliferation of entitlements and mandates at the federal and state levels that strap our fiscal budgets. We've been spending more and more over the years, yet poverty gets worse and education gets worse, and more and more people pay no taxes and are dependent on the gov't.

What middle age people are is typically in their prime earning years. All we want is tax equity and a realization by younger people that money doesn't grow on trees. Someone has to cough up the "investment" you so easily volunteer from others. If we pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes, the least we want is a responsible gov't to use the money wisely. That's not too much to ask.

 
Old 11-06-2010, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,792 posts, read 2,297,274 times
Reputation: 1446
Very valid concerns, Neil.

But you seem to be papering over the fact that there has always been illegal immigration to this country, along with the requisite conservative backlash whenever the country enters into an economic depression.

There are two very well documented events of mass-illegal repatriation in this country's past. And yet here it is today in the year 2010, that we are STILL talking about this. Why has nothing been solve, eh?

Also, I am more worried about whether or not there will be ANY livable wage jobs that I can pay flat taxes on in the next 20 or more years (Not that I believe in the concept of the flat tax anyways). If the "all free-market or nothing" folks have their way, even the highly paid jobs like Airline pilot may be outsourced/offshored to some guy name Ahmed Patel in India who is willing to work for $15,000 or less yearly.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
You must hang around different "middle age people" than I do, and I'm 45 years old.

What I see are people who work hard at their jobs, work hard at their small business, work hard at expanding the economy, only to be berated and punished at every turn with rhetoric, new taxes, or new regulations.

I just love when people spout rhetoric about "investment" and try to make the case that the money gov't spends is like putting money in your 401K. It's not, and when my parents and grandparents were alive and in society, there wasn't 50% of earners not paying any taxes. There weren't millions of illegals and other people living off the taxes paid by others. The size of the federal and state gov'ts was considerably smaller.

What we need is everyone paying taxes. We need a flat tax that takes the same percentage from every person, regardless of age, sex, religion, economic status, or political affiliation. If a person makes more, then they pay more. We also need to roll back the proliferation of entitlements and mandates at the federal and state levels that strap our fiscal budgets. We've been spending more and more over the years, yet poverty gets worse and education gets worse, and more and more people pay no taxes and are dependent on the gov't.

What middle age people are is typically in their prime earning years. All we want is tax equity and a realization by younger people that money doesn't grow on trees. Someone has to cough up the "investment" you so easily volunteer from others. If we pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes, the least we want is a responsible gov't to use the money wisely. That's not too much to ask.
 
Old 11-06-2010, 09:09 PM
 
1,652 posts, read 1,930,730 times
Reputation: 477
Interesting thread... thanks for the good reading, guys. I expected Dems to lose big this election but probably not as big. The country is pretty irrational but I didn't think they would fall over the ledge this much. By and large, poll after poll shows that the country still blames Republican policies for creating this economic climate but they voted them back in anyway. I generally agree with the 'punish the party in power' principle but this was a bit much, particularly when I have not heard any new policies that they would offer to help Americans, other than to make sure Obama is not elected in 2012. It boggles my mind that a party leader can say that defeating the President is their TOP priority in this economic climate and not get lambasted by his party. But this is 2010. Politics has become a sport and the parties are treated like the team you've been rooting for all your life... it doesn't matter what they do or say, I'll stick by them. It's a psychosis and I hope the electorate can see through that... and I mean that on both sides.

As for Deal's election, it just shows again the power of party identity. If this guy had the same resume as a Democrat, he would not even be in the general election... however, because Georgians love dem some Republicans, he wins with a very healthy margin. Incredible. It really makes me consider whether I want to raise my children here.
 
Old 11-06-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,731 posts, read 2,755,547 times
Reputation: 1895
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
What I see are people who work hard at their jobs, work hard at their small business, work hard at expanding the economy, only to be berated and punished at every turn with rhetoric, new taxes, or new regulations.
.....
It's not, and when my parents and grandparents were alive and in society, there wasn't 50% of earners not paying any taxes.
This is exactly the perfect example of what I am talking. You discuss the rhetoric of "investment," but what about this rhetoric of "new taxes" and "new regulations." In the last 30 years more taxes have been -CUT-, investment in infrastructure has been -Cut- back, and it has been a period of -De-regulation, but if you read this statement and the many others like it you would think the opposite was true, but that is not the case.

I never said they didn't work hard, but they worked hard and refused to give into the same system that gave them to ability to succeed.

The generations before them made the interstates, invested heavily in the education system, and maintained strict regulations to curb pollution from the industrial age and prevent the banking system from collapsing like it did during the depression. However the last several decades has had less investment, less taxes, and more deregulation.

Also, every reported wage earner pays taxes. People always forget about the flat and regressive payroll taxes. This is also not to mention that the income tax system has been progressive for many years and it has been very common for many wage earners not to pay a income tax, especially during recession when unemployment is higher and wages are lower.

Anyway you want to analyze rhetoric... reality has to come first.
 
Old 11-06-2010, 10:27 PM
 
26,682 posts, read 21,855,665 times
Reputation: 7436
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Totally agree. The Babyboomer Generation have totally squandered the economic & social freedoms that were bequeathed unto them from the previous generations. How can I count the ways?

1. Allowed for the creation of NAFTA & other Free trade Agreements, which sold out America's industry to the third world

2. Allowed big business to push back against labor, unravelling long held labor rights like overtime pay & pensions

3. Allowing the Private Military Industrial Complex to run roughshod over the third world which may potentially bankrupt the U.S.A. & alienates the rest of the world

4. Allowed crop dumping which pushes economically ailing countries into near collapse and encourages illegal immigration to the U.S.

5. Still haven't settled the question of race; the Shirley Sherrod controversy is proof of that (You know that a society is sick when a person can twist a speech about how NOT to be racist into a racist speech and get away with it!!!)

Boy, ya gotta love the babyboomer folks...NOT!

This being the case, where will this leave Generation Y persons(those born in 1982 and after) such as me?
 
Old 11-07-2010, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,681 posts, read 9,717,791 times
Reputation: 3209
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
I never said they didn't work hard, but they worked hard and refused to give into the same system that gave them to ability to succeed.
Who is "refusing to give into the same system that gave them the ability to succesd?" You really need to understand and speak to facts.

I have no problem paying my FAIR share and contributing to my gov't, and all but the most extreme feel the same way. What I and many others object to is paying tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes every year, while a majority pays absolutely nothing, very little, or gets back handouts in the form of programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit and other refundable credits. Then, to add insult to injury, we're told it's not enough. We're "greedy" and "selfish" and made to feel like we don't do enough.

I have no problem funding what gov't should do and must do, such as build roads, fund schools, public safety, national security, some level of business and economic development, and other constitutional and necessary functions that I as an individual cannot do for myself. What I and many others (as expressed by the recent election) do not want is an ever growing gov't taking over the private sector, or one that passes ill conceived "stimulus" programs that anyone with a brain knew would not be effective and was merely wasted spending.

The state of Georgia has gone down the correct path. You cannot grow the budget and raise taxes in recession. Other states like NY, NJ, CA, MA and other more tax and spend leaning states have huge budget shortfalls, despite their increases in taxes and huge gov't programs.

Your argument/vision seems to be that middle aged people are greedy and sitting back in their houses counting their money, laughing while poor people and old people die in the streets. I don't know where you get that from, but the reality is much simpler. We pay the bulk of taxes. We see the tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars come out of our paychecks every year. Now we're told it's not enough, while others pay nothing. We're saying enough is enough. No more. Cut spending back to levels we had when we were in our 20s. Get more earners paying taxes again. Remove ridiculous gov't regulation and mandates that stifle business and chase them offshore.

It goes on and on. Learn the facts and it becomes easier to understand the mindset of many middle aged people. We "invest" way more than we ever did in my parents' time. The difference is back then, everyone paid and spending on earmarks, waste, and people living off the gov't was not at the obscene levels it is today.

Last edited by neil0311; 11-07-2010 at 07:16 AM..
 
Old 11-07-2010, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Whidbey Island, WA
12,796 posts, read 18,940,683 times
Reputation: 5654
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Who is "refusing to give into the same system that gave them the ability to succesd?" You really need to understand and speak to facts.

I have no problem paying my FAIR share and contributing to my gov't, and all but the most extreme feel the same way. What I and many others object to is paying tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes every year, while a majority pays absolutely nothing, very little, or gets back handouts in the form of programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit and other refundable credits. Then, to add insult to injury, we're told it's not enough. We're "greedy" and "selfish" and made to feel like we don't do enough.

I have no problem funding what gov't should do and must do, such as build roads, fund schools, public safety, national security, some level of business and economic development, and other constitutional and necessary functions that I as an individual cannot do for myself. What I and many others (as expressed by the recent election) do not want is an ever growing gov't taking over the private sector, or one that passes ill conceived "stimulus" programs that anyone with a brain knew would not be effective and was merely wasted spending.

The state of Georgia has gone down the correct path. You cannot grow the budget and raise taxes in recession. Other states like NY, NJ, CA, MA and other more tax and spend leaning states have huge budget shortfalls, despite their increases in taxes and huge gov't programs.

Your argument/vision seems to be that middle aged people are greedy and sitting back in their houses counting their money, laughing while poor people and old people die in the streets. I don't know where you get that from, but the reality is much simpler. We pay the bulk of taxes. We see the tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars come out of our paychecks every year. Now we're told it's not enough, while others pay nothing. We're saying enough is enough. No more. Cut spending back to levels we had when we were in our 20s. Get more earners paying taxes again. Remove ridiculous gov't regulation and mandates that stifle business and chase them offshore.

It goes on and on. Learn the facts and it becomes easier to understand the mindset of many middle aged people. We "invest" way more than we ever did in my parents' time. The difference is back then, everyone paid and spending on earmarks, waste, and people living off the gov't was not at the obscene levels it is today.
To paraphrase Lillian Hellman, I don't see one word here that I disagree with, including 'I' and 'the'.
 
Old 11-07-2010, 08:13 AM
 
18 posts, read 54,528 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsmoove View Post
Interesting thread... thanks for the good reading, guys. I expected Dems to lose big this election but probably not as big. The country is pretty irrational but I didn't think they would fall over the ledge this much. By and large, poll after poll shows that the country still blames Republican policies for creating this economic climate but they voted them back in anyway. I generally agree with the 'punish the party in power' principle but this was a bit much, particularly when I have not heard any new policies that they would offer to help Americans, other than to make sure Obama is not elected in 2012. It boggles my mind that a party leader can say that defeating the President is their TOP priority in this economic climate and not get lambasted by his party. But this is 2010. Politics has become a sport and the parties are treated like the team you've been rooting for all your life... it doesn't matter what they do or say, I'll stick by them. It's a psychosis and I hope the electorate can see through that... and I mean that on both sides.

As for Deal's election, it just shows again the power of party identity. If this guy had the same resume as a Democrat, he would not even be in the general election... however, because Georgians love dem some Republicans, he wins with a very healthy margin. Incredible. It really makes me consider whether I want to raise my children here.

Very well said!!!! Don't forget, Democrats still hold the Senate!!!
 
Old 11-07-2010, 08:17 AM
 
1,652 posts, read 1,930,730 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Who is "refusing to give into the same system that gave them the ability to succesd?" You really need to understand and speak to facts.

I have no problem paying my FAIR share and contributing to my gov't, and all but the most extreme feel the same way. What I and many others object to is paying tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes every year, while a majority pays absolutely nothing, very little, or gets back handouts in the form of programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit and other refundable credits. Then, to add insult to injury, we're told it's not enough. We're "greedy" and "selfish" and made to feel like we don't do enough.

I have no problem funding what gov't should do and must do, such as build roads, fund schools, public safety, national security, some level of business and economic development, and other constitutional and necessary functions that I as an individual cannot do for myself. What I and many others (as expressed by the recent election) do not want is an ever growing gov't taking over the private sector, or one that passes ill conceived "stimulus" programs that anyone with a brain knew would not be effective and was merely wasted spending.

The state of Georgia has gone down the correct path. You cannot grow the budget and raise taxes in recession. Other states like NY, NJ, CA, MA and other more tax and spend leaning states have huge budget shortfalls, despite their increases in taxes and huge gov't programs.

Your argument/vision seems to be that middle aged people are greedy and sitting back in their houses counting their money, laughing while poor people and old people die in the streets. I don't know where you get that from, but the reality is much simpler. We pay the bulk of taxes. We see the tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars come out of our paychecks every year. Now we're told it's not enough, while others pay nothing. We're saying enough is enough. No more. Cut spending back to levels we had when we were in our 20s. Get more earners paying taxes again. Remove ridiculous gov't regulation and mandates that stifle business and chase them offshore.

It goes on and on. Learn the facts and it becomes easier to understand the mindset of many middle aged people. We "invest" way more than we ever did in my parents' time. The difference is back then, everyone paid and spending on earmarks, waste, and people living off the gov't was not at the obscene levels it is today.
Neil, you make some very good and important points here. Most notably, I agree that those of us who pay more taxes should not be demonized. Like you, I have absolutely no problem paying my fair share. I think where you sort of go off course is trying compare taxes with past generations. If you look at the federal tax rates over the years, your parents and their parents most certainly had a higher tax rate than we enjoy now. If you recall, when Reagan took office, the top tax bracket was around 70%. It's now half of that... and even Reagan raised taxes when he realized he cut taxes too much.

Another huge issue you neglected is the matter of capital gains tax. I completely agree that they should be low in order to encourage investing... but when your billion dollar+ income as a hedge fund trader is based on a 15% tax rate and your secretary pays 35%, something seems a bit askew. I think that inequality needs to be addressed in a way that does not discourage investing.

As for spending and the debt, I agree it needs to be kept in check. What i don't understand is why folks think that the Republicans are the party to do it. Spending was brought under control with Clinton and a Republican Congress... Bush and a Republican Congress exploded it... and Obama inherited TARP, pushed through a stimulus (1/3 of which were tax cuts) to avoid a deep recession, bailed out the autos (which the gov't is now projected to make a profit from) and passed a health care law that the CBO says will reduce spending on healthcare over the next decade.

However, the biggest indicator to me that Republicans have no compunction to reduce their debt are: (i) they refused to sign on to the debt commission -- a panel of 4 Republicans and 4 Democrats -- that would issue a package to eliminate the deficit that can then be voted on up or down with 60 votes. This was a Republican idea and when Obama initiated it, they all of a sudden had deep objections; and (ii) the so-called Pledge to America document that promises to reduce the debt but explicitly states that they won't touch the top three contributors to debt-- defense, medicare/medicaid and social security. The math doesn't work out and that's because they are teaching a class on cynics.

I also agree that states can't behave like the federal government. They have to balance their budget and that's why they have to cut services and employees. I also think it's eminently defensible for the federal government to then assist those states so that they don't cut too deep on vital services like education and crime prevention.

The point is that, yes, long-term, the deficit needs to be reduced but from my perspective, only the Obama administration has been putting up real ideas as to how to do that... well, with the exception of Republican Rep. Ryan, but he's being ignored by his party.

I think this interview of Carly Fiorina by Chris Wallace of FOX sums up the problem... a lot of lip service but no plans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYaXE0RWr30
 
Old 11-07-2010, 10:23 AM
 
14,578 posts, read 9,162,813 times
Reputation: 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Who is "refusing to give into the same system that gave them the ability to succesd?" You really need to understand and speak to facts.

I have no problem paying my FAIR share and contributing to my gov't, and all but the most extreme feel the same way. What I and many others object to is paying tens of thousands of dollars in federal and state taxes every year, while a majority pays absolutely nothing, very little, or gets back handouts in the form of programs like the Earned Income Tax Credit and other refundable credits. Then, to add insult to injury, we're told it's not enough. We're "greedy" and "selfish" and made to feel like we don't do enough.

I have no problem funding what gov't should do and must do, such as build roads, fund schools, public safety, national security, some level of business and economic development, and other constitutional and necessary functions that I as an individual cannot do for myself. What I and many others (as expressed by the recent election) do not want is an ever growing gov't taking over the private sector, or one that passes ill conceived "stimulus" programs that anyone with a brain knew would not be effective and was merely wasted spending.

The state of Georgia has gone down the correct path. You cannot grow the budget and raise taxes in recession. Other states like NY, NJ, CA, MA and other more tax and spend leaning states have huge budget shortfalls, despite their increases in taxes and huge gov't programs.

Your argument/vision seems to be that middle aged people are greedy and sitting back in their houses counting their money, laughing while poor people and old people die in the streets. I don't know where you get that from, but the reality is much simpler. We pay the bulk of taxes. We see the tens (in some cases hundreds) of thousands of dollars come out of our paychecks every year. Now we're told it's not enough, while others pay nothing. We're saying enough is enough. No more. Cut spending back to levels we had when we were in our 20s. Get more earners paying taxes again. Remove ridiculous gov't regulation and mandates that stifle business and chase them offshore.

It goes on and on. Learn the facts and it becomes easier to understand the mindset of many middle aged people. We "invest" way more than we ever did in my parents' time. The difference is back then, everyone paid and spending on earmarks, waste, and people living off the gov't was not at the obscene levels it is today.
Well said, Neil. It's disgusting how many people are living off the government (i.e., the citizens who are paying taxes). That includes cities, states and counties, too.

I don't have any problem the general idea of stimulus spending, and in fact it wouldn't have bothered me to spend a good bit more; however, it should have been lasered in on infrastructure spending with absolute strict accountability and tight time limits.
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