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Old 01-05-2011, 06:25 PM
 
8,863 posts, read 8,027,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodcutterron View Post
That's covered, though not in great detail, in my post. The answer: "Jail".
When we stop jailing folks for ridiculous amounts of time for comparatively minor offenses, more room for the violent and/or larcenous true thugs.

What do you consider as the other "societal issues" that need funding?
The jails are overcrowded--and would become more overcrowded or many more new jails/prisons would need to be built.

Education and mental health, roads--tax dollars are needed for many reasons.

I wonder about what the 'solutions' are myself.

sigh--Drugs--non-violent felonies --I suppose they could be minor offenses. I've read thousands of opinions and it is too much for me. That's all I can say.

A violent society.
I can't take much of Nancy Grace but this incident will be featured in her next segment.

She's now discussing a 10 yr old boy who shot his mother with a rifle/some type of hunting gun in a rural area of Ohio. Parents disagreed over whether the boy should have guns---kept in a rack over his bed. The mother wanted them out of the house, fwiw. Apparently the father had recently moved out.

Somewhere in IL --the son of a police detective fired shots at school and wounded a principal and an assistant principal.

There are just so many problems.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:13 PM
 
13,834 posts, read 8,195,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodcutterron View Post
The answer: "Jail". When we stop jailing folks for ridiculous amounts of time for comparatively minor offenses, more room for the violent and/or larcenous true thugs.
I agree with that. Take the non-violent offenders and put them to work on public projects. For example, a group of 25 guys could clean up all the trash on Joseph E. Lowery Boulevard in one week of hard work. One more week and they could plant flowers and trees and put out some pine straw and make that place look sharp. Then on to the next street. Let them do that for three months and their sentence is complete. They'll be in great shape physically, they will have the pride of accomplishing something tangible. I'd even be willing to seal their records if they don't commit further offenses so that they can into the work force.

For the violent and larcenous thugs, I like the Soylent Green solution suggested by rcsteiner.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:13 PM
 
Location: West Point Ga
81 posts, read 50,966 times
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Well not as many if we stopped jailing folks for what are essentially civil infractions. A LOT of jail space is being taken up by folks who really don't need to be in jail.

I also have to point out that I don't consider all drug possession crimes to be minor. Marijuana is nowhere near on the same level realistically as Heroin, Methamphetamine, Cocaine, etc. Fifty bucks worth of pot will get someone generally in a LOT less actual trouble, than fifty bucks worth of crack, or even whiskey will. Getting caught with a pound of coke, that's perfectly acceptable to me as a felony. But a pound of Marijuana . . . notsomuch.

There is also a tendency to inflate things which is also nuts. In many states, a sprouted marijuana seed is considered the same as a fully mature 6 foot plant. The truly asinine line of "reason" (a misnomer) is that the seed will become a huge plant, therefore it should be procecuted as such. Reality does NOT even remotely support this silly rationalization . . .yet many folks are in jail for a LONG time based on it.

As for the Mental health issues, now that is something that needs to be undone completely and started from scratch. It's rife with abuse, and most folks "benefiting" from the system don't need it, and the folks who really do are too nuts to even try to benefit from it.

I like that one commercial where the Drill Instructor-turned psychiatrist reams a guy a new one, then throws a box of tissues at a guy for whining that "the color yellow makes him sad."

It was meant to be humorous, but in reality that is what a LOT of folks too lazy and/or coddled to take responsibility for their own problems really need.

Education, I don't feel really needs any more money. Bring back "Homework", discipline, and give the educators a little support in telling deluded liberal parents that "Little Billy" is NOT an angel, he's a spoiled, precocious brat, and if they don't like the idea of Billy getting spanked for telling a teacher to %#@& off and die, well, get the little punk out of here then and home school him or whatever.

Also, go back to actually FAILING kids who sleep in class and clown around all day. Go back to rewarding kids who excel. Not all of us can, and those that can shouldn't be held back for it. Not all of us can, at least not at everything and we might as well get the kids used to it early, so it won['t be such a surprise to them when they grow up and find out that mediocrity just doesn't cut it in the real world.

These are the ones who end up needing mental health resources, because they're depressed their boss fired them for merely showing up an hour late for work 32 times in a year.
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Old 01-05-2011, 08:08 PM
 
3,130 posts, read 2,760,715 times
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ITs a problem with the ENTIRE SYSTEM

The man was arrested 19 times. The GA recommended much harsher penalties that the judges ignored and give very shor/time served sentences. His arrest in Dec was sad b/c there was no warrant and the cop didn't show up to court so he had to be released.

Then he kills a cop.

The entire system failed here. Quite frankly not every human is meant to better society. This guy wasted our tax dollars, our courts time and now even more time and resources will be wasted on this turd.

Two options, drop him in an active volcano or make him work in China the rest of his life in some mines and every gotdamn penny he earns goes to the victims family.

TAXPAYERS ARE GOING TO PAY TO KEEP THIS ASSHAT ALIVE!!!
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
1,719 posts, read 1,132,441 times
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Default Absolutely.....If....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Are you willing to extend that approach to everyone, including Police Officers who violate the law and kill innocents?

Sure, so long as the Police Officer gets arrested 18 times, let out...18 times, and kills an innocent with intent like this....sure, why not? Oh that's right, the system would stop him on the first try....

Look the world is full of pricks....quit making excuses for them....kill them......

As far as the real pricks? Give them Life without Parole....They need to suffer....let them.....

To continue to "understand" and try to reabilitate is a waste of resources....I think we gave him 18 strikes...isn't that enough for you? To continue to defend the defenseless only perpetuates societies misery....

Execute or life without parole....and THEN let God deal with him.....

Bon Voyage....
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Location: West Point Ga
81 posts, read 50,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Looks like there's gonna be even less money to get the courts & prison system thing straight when Governor Deal and his fellow cohorts in the State Legislature get back to work next week...Or maybe there will be more money when they levy more regressive sales taxes upon the rest of us working poor to pay for the reforms...
I'd like to hear more about how you come to those conclusions, as admittedly I don't know much about Governor Deal, other than what I've heard others say quite vaguely about Governor Deal. who seem to be only parroting what they've heard others vaguely say about Governor Deal.

I do know that his voting record as a Congressman seems "kinda in line" with my political views. I'm also aware of the controversy surrounding his part in supporting state recertification inspection stations rather than sending inspectors to each individual auto. That makes perfect fiscal sense to me.

The rub lays in the reality that Deal owned a number of these stations, and as such stood to benefit . . . but it was a good idea, as it's much less costly to the state (and therefore us taxpayers) to send inspectors to a common location that to pay them to drive around to each and every individual car in the state that needed to be recertified.

I do have some concerns about the hows and whys, but not with the reality that he was actually backing a perfectly good idea, even if he did stand to benefit from it.

Analogically, If PETA lobbied to outlaw eating meat in Georgia, I'm not gonna necessarily scream "COLLUSION!" or some other ethics violation if some Governor tries to block such an action, just because he also raises beef cattle.

As for raising Taxes, that is a distinct possibility I suppose, particularly with the dismal shape of the economy . . . which can directly be traced back to the policies of tax and spend, socialist, Democrats.

Frankly, slashing through the entitlement program budgets is the way to go, but the socialist Democrats would scream like stuck pigs, and still have enough power to keep that from happening anyway.

I guess what I'm getting at, is just exactly why is Deal such a bad Deal?
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:51 PM
 
Location: West Point Ga
81 posts, read 50,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Are you willing to extend that approach to everyone, including Police Officers who violate the law and kill innocents?
I didn't read every post relevant to this question, but I'm gonna give my opinion on the idea of capital punishment, even for police officers who commit murder, first degree murder, anyway.

Yes, I generally would have no problem with life sentence or death penalty for Officers who commit first degree murder, even if they've never done anything else wrong in their lives.

Police officers, for ANY crime, capital or otherwise should not only not be given any leniency in sentencing, they should, if anything, be held to a higher standard of conduct than an ordinary citizen. Its an issue of fiduciary responsibility, in part anyway.

I firmly believe that if, for example, an ordinary citizen can be given 90 days in jail for stealing a stereo or something, a police officer who does the same thing should get up to 120 days. Now if a Judge steals a stereo . . .admittedly not likely a common occurrence, heheh, 150 days . . .naaa . . . make that 364.
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Old 01-05-2011, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
1,719 posts, read 1,132,441 times
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Talking Excellent Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodcutterron View Post
Well one HUGE problem is the lack of common sense . . .and I mean a TOTAL lack of it, on both extremes of the issue. One thing that needs to be eliminated is parole . . .period. Another is suspension of sentences. Of course along with this is we need to bring back "let the punishment fit the crime".

Parole and such exists solely because of ridiculously overpunitive sentences for some crimes. Many things are now labeled "felonies" that simply . . .well . . .aren't. Stupid idea abound, and further discombobulate things. Like the "Three strikes and you're out" . . .or more correctly "in" for an often ridiculous period of time for some "felonies".

We also need to stop using unrelated punitive measures to compel cooperation on totally unrelated issues. By this, I mean things like taking away peoples drivers license for not making child support payments. One has nothing to do with the other, and is in fact counterproductive to the very goal it proffers to compel.

It's nuts to put some loser in jail for twenty years if he gets caught with an ounce and a half of weed, even if he did get caught with an ounce and a half of weed twice before. Dumb? Yep. Does he deserve punishment? Yep. But nailing someone for "3 strikes" for simply being a pothead is simply nuts. More than one Alcoholic judge has probably sentenced people like this, despite the Judge him or her self being more of a danger to the community than some dope head.

Politicians get on these politically correct high horses, and we end up filling jails with folks who are more of a minor annoyance to society and in doing so, end up turning lose folks who are truly violent maniacs. It's all quite nuts, really.

Wood,

You are spot on with this. I think the common sense you speak of is precisely what we need. I believe prisons and other institutions that major in "tough love" should be reserved for the truly felonious. It serves us not to toss some knucklehead in jail for 20 years over pot. Give him some help, fine the **** out of him but long term jail???? Me thinks not.

ON THE OTHER HAND, for those that rob, get out, beat, get out, and then shoot and kill or maim? Do not pass go, do NOT collect $200....off to the big house and learn a new meaning of a healthy prostrate.....no mercy....

Take the others and put them to work. Hell, I would be happy if they at least had them using push brooms between the hours of 1 and 5 AM sweeping up the garbage on the shoulders of every highway in this town...have you seen the amount of trash in the shoulders lately?

Take the pothead and let him do that for a few weeks/months and believe me, he will either be "cured" or daaaaaaaaamn careful not to get caught....again! Either one works for me...saves money both ways....

You could relieve considerable overcrowding doing this but, for those that do the bad crimes (armed robbery, rape, murder, you know the common sense of 7 deadly sin variety) we have PLENTY of room for them!!! That and a good, healthy fast-food lane style of appeals for those on death row....we need the space.....

Again, society is full of pricks....kill them.....

And for the most egredious of pricks? (shoots the gas station attendant AFTER he gives him the money).....Life without parole for those you really want to punish....they need to suffer....let them....

Just have the wisdom to know the difference and willingness to pick when necessary. It seems every week we get the chance if we only had the willingness to do so.....
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Old 01-05-2011, 10:36 PM
 
Location: West Point Ga
81 posts, read 50,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
. . . . Just have the wisdom to know the difference and willingness to pick when necessary.
Ahhh . . . and THAT is the big problem, heheh. We tend to have two schools of thought within the "Powers that be"

1) The "They're victims of their upbringing! It's not really their fault!" Club.

and just as bad or really even worse:

2) The "They Committed a crime! A crime is a crime! Jail them!" Club.

I should have included in my post that we really need to reign in "plea bargaining" too. I worked with a guy once who's son beat a 70-something year old woman badly while robbing her. He got caught. Long story short, after about a year, by the time he was adjudicated, it was whittled down to simple assault. Sentence: Time served.

When Jails are overcrowded, the smart thing to do is for the entire judicial system to adapt, and do it quickly. Even some crimes that should involve jail time in "a perfect world" need to start being adjudicated with some other form of punitive control, so we have room to incarcerate the violent.

Of course with tenets like plea bargaining, parole, suspension of sentences, etc. This becomes problematic. In my example above, the same charge could be applied to two guys who simply got into a good, old-fashioned mutually agreeable fistfight as was applied to a guy who brutally beat and tried to rob a frail old lady. How do you make that call when the jails are filling up?

"Triage" and flexibility on incarceratable offenses is simply impossible with the existence of plea bargaining and such. Then we have the problem of tough Judges who love to hand out huge sentences for relatively innocuous crimes. Similarly we have politically motivated "tough on crime" mandatory sentencing guidelines, that have little to do or any real allowance for extenuating circumstances.

Look at "Three strikes and your out". Sounds good, unless we consider it a bit more carefully. Suppose a guy steals a car at 18. Felony. Then at 19 kites a check for 600 bucks. Felony. Twenty five years later, after cleaning up his act, and being generally a productive member of society, beats a guy up pretty good for sleeping with his wife. Felony. Bye Bye. For doing what is . . . well . . . a perfectly legit reason for kicking someones as-er-butt, in my book, but my personal opinion on the specific reason aside, as a society, there should generally be some sort of punishment for it. But dang, put the guy away for 20 to life?

In a nutshell, the Judicial system needs to be revamped completely. Streamlined. We also need to get back to recording each and EVERY criminal court case, and civil cases that can possibly evolve into a jailable offense (like unpaid traffic tickets in many states) no matter how minor.

I don't think most folks realize how BADLY the court system is abused by Judges and prosecutors, particularly in lower courts where defendants are pretty clueless about the laws and courtroom procedure and are defending themselves.

Last edited by Woodcutterron; 01-05-2011 at 10:38 PM.. Reason: clarification of the "fistfight"
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:51 AM
 
13,834 posts, read 8,195,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodcutterron View Post
Of course with tenets like plea bargaining, parole, suspension of sentences, etc. This becomes problematic. In my example above, the same charge could be applied to two guys who simply got into a good, old-fashioned mutually agreeable fistfight as was applied to a guy who brutally beat and tried to rob a frail old lady. How do you make that call when the jails are filling up?

"Triage" and flexibility on incarceratable offenses is simply impossible with the existence of plea bargaining and such. Then we have the problem of tough Judges who love to hand out huge sentences for relatively innocuous crimes. Similarly we have politically motivated "tough on crime" mandatory sentencing guidelines, that have little to do or any real allowance for extenuating circumstances.
You have to have a certain amount of flexibility in the system, and that includes plea bargaining, probation, etc. It's literally impossible to try every case to a jury and seek the statutory penalty.

However, that doesn't mean being soft on crime or letting guilty people off the hook. Any of us who've watched Law & Order realize that many times a plea bargain results in in a stiff sentence with guaranteed time to serve.

What we need to do is find a better way of identifying the truly bad guys and being sure they are removed from society. Violent offenders have forfeited their right to exist among the rest of us.

At the same time, it would suit me fine if they decriminalize pot -- who cares? We don't need to be spending time and money on trivial stuff like that.
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