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Old 04-27-2011, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Midtown Atlanta
4,689 posts, read 2,985,511 times
Reputation: 1669

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Older cities, developed before the auto, were more compact by necessity. Thus, Toledo, Paris (the old city), etc. are denser than modern auto-centric cities like Atlanta and LA. It's really not logical to even compare the two (I'm not saying that's what anyone is doing).
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Old 04-27-2011, 11:44 AM
 
357 posts, read 378,942 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
Actually people do move to be near transit.I did.The other thing is MARTA has had comprehensive plans at many of its stations to create places to live work and play near to where these stations are which makes transit more desirable.
One could even say building transit far out in the suburbs only increases sprawl.D.C. has a great system but it sprawls worse than Atlanta and the traffic is even worse.
Im not arguing aginst building it further out but it more focused on where the greatest concentration of where people already are.

For example they have been talks trying to add a spur or station heading to the Emory/Clairmont corridor.That is a highly congested area.If things like this or done instead of focusing on going further out,I believe it would increase ridership if they did this al over the city where there gaps.

As far as air quality is concerned cities like Madrid have constantly gone beyond the limits of air quality standards.
Cities like Toledo are over 600 years old.Personally I would never want to live in cities like those where everyone has little space.Don't get me wrong I do believe density and more urbanity is good but cities that old are not that way by design rather than just being old where there is no space to grow.
I applaud you for moving closer to mass transit. With rising gas prices, you are probably happy you did.

What I was referring too in previous posts was the concept of New Urbanism. I'm not talking about hearts of downtowns, but rather the towns and cities that spawn outside the city. The videos Randy posted beautifully illustrate the concepts on New Urbanism.

Toledo may have been a bad example, but what should be understood is that you dont have to sacrafice your personal space (your house, apartment, etc.) to achieve sustainable communities. We're talking about utilizing the space in the town or city more efficiently b/c you're right.... well if you expand MARTA out to the suburbs, will it have a great impact on ridership?... probably not. Why? Because the towns and cities outside of atlanta were designed poorly. Consider even neighborhoods inside the paramater. How many stations can you comfortably walk to? not many...

Look at Marrietta. A huge metro population, right? Again, because of the way it was designed, maximum ridership could never be obtained. But if Marrietta were designed more like this http://www.planetizen.com/files/new-...ighborhood.jpg

then you would have a high density suburb where mass transit could be utilized effectively. And like I was saying before, you dont have to sacrfice on your own private space...well you may loose some of your lawn space, but a denser town would create more public greenspace for people to share.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:02 PM
 
7,852 posts, read 12,625,813 times
Reputation: 2609
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomno00 View Post
I applaud you for moving closer to mass transit. With rising gas prices, you are probably happy you did.

What I was referring too in previous posts was the concept of New Urbanism. I'm not talking about hearts of downtowns, but rather the towns and cities that spawn outside the city. The videos Randy posted beautifully illustrate the concepts on New Urbanism.

Toledo may have been a bad example, but what should be understood is that you dont have to sacrafice your personal space (your house, apartment, etc.) to achieve sustainable communities. We're talking about utilizing the space in the town or city more efficiently b/c you're right.... well if you expand MARTA out to the suburbs, will it have a great impact on ridership?... probably not. Why? Because the towns and cities outside of atlanta were designed poorly. Consider even neighborhoods inside the paramater. How many stations can you comfortably walk to? not many...

Look at Marrietta. A huge metro population, right? Again, because of the way it was designed, maximum ridership could never be obtained. But if Marrietta were designed more like this http://www.planetizen.com/files/new-...ighborhood.jpg

then you would have a high density suburb where mass transit could be utilized effectively. And like I was saying before, you dont have to sacrfice on your own private space...well you may loose some of your lawn space, but a denser town would create more public greenspace for people to share.
Most of the towns and cities outside of Atlanta were "designed" long before Atlanta became the center of it all. I'm not sure what you're advocating here...a complete overhaul of every suburb or more like a tear-down-and-start-over concept?

I'm pretty sure that New Urbanism is not a secret. Most everything that has been developed since 2000 has utilized this concept. But it's a drastically different concept than the patterns of development over the past few decades, and it will take several decades to see the changes/reap the benefits. This is true not only in Atlanta, but in every metro region across the country.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Atlanta ,GA
8,071 posts, read 7,332,402 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomno00 View Post
I applaud you for moving closer to mass transit. With rising gas prices, you are probably happy you did.

What I was referring too in previous posts was the concept of New Urbanism. I'm not talking about hearts of downtowns, but rather the towns and cities that spawn outside the city. The videos Randy posted beautifully illustrate the concepts on New Urbanism.

Toledo may have been a bad example, but what should be understood is that you dont have to sacrafice your personal space (your house, apartment, etc.) to achieve sustainable communities. We're talking about utilizing the space in the town or city more efficiently b/c you're right.... well if you expand MARTA out to the suburbs, will it have a great impact on ridership?... probably not. Why? Because the towns and cities outside of atlanta were designed poorly. Consider even neighborhoods inside the paramater. How many stations can you comfortably walk to? not many...

Look at Marrietta. A huge metro population, right? Again, because of the way it was designed, maximum ridership could never be obtained. But if Marrietta were designed more like this http://www.planetizen.com/files/new-...ighborhood.jpg

then you would have a high density suburb where mass transit could be utilized effectively. And like I was saying before, you dont have to sacrfice on your own private space...well you may loose some of your lawn space, but a denser town would create more public greenspace for people to share.
Actually pretty much ALL of them you can walk to pretty comfortably.Im not sure why you would say that. Thats exactly what I was saying earlier.More development has been focused around Transit stations over the last 10 years.You can live,shop,play and walk to these stations easily.
Lenox,Buckhead,Decatur,Reynoldstown,Lindbergh,Cham blee,etc....
I answered this in another thread here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/16326754-post679.html


Also cities in the suburbs were planned no different than those cities even in the North.D.C. has transit but thoses suburban towns look no different.Cities like Marietta have vibrant Town Squares where ne development has taken off.Almost all the towns in the metro area that have those historic downtowns have or are in the process of revitalization.Some like in they did in Smyrna are brand new from the ground up.Basically thats what New urbanism is but just a few twinks here and there for modern living."What was old is new again."
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:51 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
6,533 posts, read 6,775,268 times
Reputation: 3693
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomno00 View Post
Consider even neighborhoods inside the paramater. How many stations can you comfortably walk to? not many...
First off it is the "Perimeter". Secondly, pretty much all of them. I have literally been outside of every single MARTA station and the only one that truly is hard to get to from the surrounding area is Airport station but that is kind of the point of the whole station. North Springs, Indian Creek, Holmes and to an extent Doraville stations are also not very pedestrian friendly, but thats kind of the point of those stations too since they were to be more like commuter rail stations for commuters to park at and take a train into the city rather than a traditional subway station for a neighborhood.

I suspect if the breadth of your knowledge about using MARTA is limited to going to the Airport from whatever OTP subdivision you live in (or whom ever it is you visit on trips here) then that would cause you to make such a nonsensical statement. Also, didn't you state you are from Ft. Myers? It is a little odd you would be posting these platitudes when you live a city in which it's "public transportation system" includes 58 bus routes that only 10,000 people use each day and is essentially just a gigantic suburb for retirees not attached to any main city. MARTA has 43 times the amount of daily riders and is the 9th most used public transportation system in the United States, 11th most used on the continent. We must be doing something right.
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Old 04-27-2011, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
657 posts, read 896,621 times
Reputation: 478
Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
Actually people do move to be near transit.I did.The other thing is MARTA has had comprehensive plans at many of its stations to create places to live work and play near to where these stations are which makes transit more desirable.
One could even say building transit far out in the suburbs only increases sprawl.D.C. has a great system but it sprawls worse than Atlanta and the traffic is even worse.
Im not arguing aginst building it further out but it more focused on where the greatest concentration of where people already are.

For example they have been talks trying to add a spur or station heading to the Emory/Clairmont corridor.That is a highly congested area.If things like this or done instead of focusing on going further out,I believe it would increase ridership if they did this al over the city where there gaps.

As far as air quality is concerned cities like Madrid have constantly gone beyond the limits of air quality standards.
Cities like Toledo are over 600 years old.Personally I would never want to live in cities like those where everyone has little space.Don't get me wrong I do believe density and more urbanity is good but cities that old are not that way by design rather than just being old where there is no space to grow.
How does metro DC "sprawl worse" than Atlanta when it has a half million more people in roughly half the square mileage?

Does it have worse traffic? Yes it sure does. But that's also because when you consider the Baltimore-Washington CSA which has 8.7 million people in roughly the same square mileage of the Atlanta CSA which has roughly 3 million people less, you are going to have much much worse congestion.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:01 PM
 
357 posts, read 378,942 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
Actually pretty much ALL of them you can walk to pretty comfortably.Im not sure why you would say that. Thats exactly what I was saying earlier.More development has been focused around Transit stations over the last 10 years.You can live,shop,play and walk to these stations easily.
Lenox,Buckhead,Decatur,Reynoldstown,Lindbergh,Cham blee,etc....
I answered this in another thread here:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/16326754-post679.html


Also cities in the suburbs were planned no different than those cities even in the North.D.C. has transit but thoses suburban towns look no different.Cities like Marietta have vibrant Town Squares where ne development has taken off.Almost all the towns in the metro area that have those historic downtowns have or are in the process of revitalization.Some like in they did in Smyrna are brand new from the ground up.Basically thats what New urbanism is but just a few twinks here and there for modern living."What was old is new again."
Thanks for the link. To be honest, I have set foot maybe once or twice in Marietta in my 23 years growing up in Atlanta (I'm from Atl btw waronxmas. I'm here on a temporary assigment. If you really care so much about it, I'd be more than happy to change my location to whatever you want for you. ) I disagree with your opinion about the walkabilty of some of those stations. I believe with the size of a city like Atlanta, there should be more pedestrian friendly areas around the city that would make public transporation more accessible. I'm pretty well traveled and I've seen the link between walkability, density, and public transporation. Atl is still very much lacking in that regard. Honesly, a lot of my opinions on the matter are based on my appreciations for a european style of living. I understand that many people may not like that life style. But consider the alternative... How long can the city of atlanta sustain itself? The pollution problem really disturbs me (not to mention the traffic). Although I guess there is light at the end of the tunnel in terms of making progress.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:07 PM
 
357 posts, read 378,942 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
First off it is the "Perimeter". Secondly, pretty much all of them. I have literally been outside of every single MARTA station and the only one that truly is hard to get to from the surrounding area is Airport station but that is kind of the point of the whole station. North Springs, Indian Creek, Holmes and to an extent Doraville stations are also not very pedestrian friendly, but thats kind of the point of those stations too since they were to be more like commuter rail stations for commuters to park at and take a train into the city rather than a traditional subway station for a neighborhood.

I suspect if the breadth of your knowledge about using MARTA is limited to going to the Airport from whatever OTP subdivision you live in (or whom ever it is you visit on trips here) then that would cause you to make such a nonsensical statement. Also, didn't you state you are from Ft. Myers? It is a little odd you would be posting these platitudes when you live a city in which it's "public transportation system" includes 58 bus routes that only 10,000 people use each day and is essentially just a gigantic suburb for retirees not attached to any main city. MARTA has 43 times the amount of daily riders and is the 9th most used public transportation system in the United States, 11th most used on the continent. We must be doing something right.
I find that real hard to believe... what is your source?
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
6,533 posts, read 6,775,268 times
Reputation: 3693
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomno00 View Post
I find that real hard to believe... what is your source?
Yes, the good old "I don't believe you" defense.

There is thing called "The Google" that answer questions like these for you, but since you feel like you shouldn't have research your criticisms, here you go.

From APTA
http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship_APTA.pdf

Rail usage with Toronto, Mexico City, Montreal, and Vancouver added to the mix:



When you add up bus ridership it is doubled.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:24 PM
 
357 posts, read 378,942 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconJ View Post
Most of the towns and cities outside of Atlanta were "designed" long before Atlanta became the center of it all. I'm not sure what you're advocating here...a complete overhaul of every suburb or more like a tear-down-and-start-over concept?

I'm pretty sure that New Urbanism is not a secret. Most everything that has been developed since 2000 has utilized this concept. But it's a drastically different concept than the patterns of development over the past few decades, and it will take several decades to see the changes/reap the benefits. This is true not only in Atlanta, but in every metro region across the country.
Honestly, I'm not sure how to approach the problem. Obviously, the design of new cities (such as Glenwood Park) can utilzed the concepts of new urbanism, but i don't know how you'd approach already establish suburbs. I'd love to hear ideas.
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