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Old 02-24-2011, 06:46 AM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,043,926 times
Reputation: 1469

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
No where in Georgia is at 30 degrees North Latitude, and definitely not 30 degrees south latitude. 30 degrees NORTH latitude goes roughly through Jacksonville, Florida. If this line touches any of Georgia, it is the little tip created by the St. Mary's River.

Atlanta is at roughly 34 N latitude. Lake Lanier is at roughly 35 N latitude.

By the way, not all places are a desert at 30 N latitude.



If you check this out, parts of China and south Asia are anything but a desert.
Check this out:

[SIZE=2]The major deserts of North America are in the southwest U.S. and Mexico, clustered around 30 degrees north latitude. Take a look around the globe, and you’ll find that deserts seem to like this latitude. The Sahara in Africa, the Great Indian Desert, and the Saudi Arabian desert all lie about a third of the way from the equator to the North Pole. The same rule applies at 30 degrees south. So why do deserts like to hang out at a certain distance from the equator? It starts with simple physics. The equator gets more sunshine, therefore, more heat than the poles, so air rises near the equator and sinks near the poles. Sinking air dries things out and in fact, the North and South Poles are both dry enough to qualify as deserts. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]But the world is a complex and puzzling place that spins and curves. Because of this, you actually have rising air near the equator, then sinking near 30 degrees north and south, rising near 60 degrees north and south, and sinking air at the poles. Now, the upshot of all this rising and sinking is that the earth’s circulation causes air to sink, thus get warmer and drier right where we find the world’s great deserts. It’s no coincidence. And those deserts are found in between the soggy equator and the stormy midlatitudes.[/SIZE]


So please forgive the physical processes of the planet earth for allowing deserts within several degrees on either side of the 30 degree lines of latitude. If not, every desert in the world would be only 111.3 km wide if it ONLY touched that one specific line in latitude. So yes, we know Nassau County, Florida is nowhere near Georgia. Now look at a real map below:



Notice the difference? This map actually shows the desert! You are trying to misrepresent the features on your map. So according to you, the Sahara, Arabian, Gobi, Sonoran, Atacama, Kalahari, and Great Australian Deserts don't exist. Please note that both Tropics are located at 23.5 degrees of latitude so some deserts go well above the 30 degree lines and some go below. So you know what guys? You can keep this thread: I have better things to do than teach climatology, hydrology, and chase red herrings.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:28 AM
 
15,061 posts, read 24,126,220 times
Reputation: 5733
Great posts, Steelers10. Very smart and well-informed.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:43 AM
 
1,299 posts, read 2,007,039 times
Reputation: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeorgia View Post
ARC: Metro Atlanta population to hit 8 million by 2040 | Atlanta Business Chronicle

Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) on Wednesday predicted the metro area will add some 3 million people over the next 30 years.
That would bring the 20-county metro Atlanta area’s population to 8 million -- about the current population of Manhattan and roughly double metro Atlanta’s population in 2000 -- by 2040.
This is HORRIBLE news! We can't handle all the transplants now! Where are the roads, the water and the infrastructure going to come from to practically double the population here???
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,333 posts, read 23,495,502 times
Reputation: 3952
Quote:
Originally Posted by suprascooby22 View Post
This is HORRIBLE news! We can't handle all the transplants now! Where are the roads, the water and the infrastructure going to come from to practically double the population here???
Aw, they'll all just move to new areas and create new suburbs. That will mean new roads. Right?
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,068 posts, read 8,504,110 times
Reputation: 5226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
Check this out:

[SIZE=2]The major deserts of North America are in the southwest U.S. and Mexico, clustered around 30 degrees north latitude. Take a look around the globe, and you’ll find that deserts seem to like this latitude. The Sahara in Africa, the Great Indian Desert, and the Saudi Arabian desert all lie about a third of the way from the equator to the North Pole. The same rule applies at 30 degrees south. So why do deserts like to hang out at a certain distance from the equator? It starts with simple physics. The equator gets more sunshine, therefore, more heat than the poles, so air rises near the equator and sinks near the poles. Sinking air dries things out and in fact, the North and South Poles are both dry enough to qualify as deserts. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]But the world is a complex and puzzling place that spins and curves. Because of this, you actually have rising air near the equator, then sinking near 30 degrees north and south, rising near 60 degrees north and south, and sinking air at the poles. Now, the upshot of all this rising and sinking is that the earth’s circulation causes air to sink, thus get warmer and drier right where we find the world’s great deserts. It’s no coincidence. And those deserts are found in between the soggy equator and the stormy midlatitudes.[/SIZE]


So please forgive the physical processes of the planet earth for allowing deserts within several degrees on either side of the 30 degree lines of latitude. If not, every desert in the world would be only 111.3 km wide if it ONLY touched that one specific line in latitude. So yes, we know Nassau County, Florida is nowhere near Georgia. Now look at a real map below:



Notice the difference? This map actually shows the desert! You are trying to misrepresent the features on your map. So according to you, the Sahara, Arabian, Gobi, Sonoran, Atacama, Kalahari, and Great Australian Deserts don't exist. Please note that both Tropics are located at 23.5 degrees of latitude so some deserts go well above the 30 degree lines and some go below. So you know what guys? You can keep this thread: I have better things to do than teach climatology, hydrology, and chase red herrings.
and you actually call that teaching climatology

At this point... I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing... I'm putting this out there so other people can understand climate types better. (Anyone can look this up in an entry level college Geography or climatology textbook), so they don't have to take my word for it.

You need to do more research on humid, subtropical and mesothermal climates, because that is what we are! Not a dry arid or semi arid climate. There is truth the effects from the latitude you are talking about, but the same affect of the ocean and having a huge continental land mass to the west generating heat (which causes hot air to rise) creates a low pressure mass of air that draw in systems from the south and east of the continent. In the process it drenches those areas making it some of the wettest places on earth.

These places naturally occur on the southeastern parts of most continents. That is why Southeast North America, Southeast Asia, Southeast South America, and small pieces of southeast Austrailia and Southeast Africa experience the exact same effects. This also happens to small parts of southeast Europe around the Mediterranean, but obviously the effects are very small given there isn't a large water mass and a huge land mass to the east.

We are in no way an arid climate or in risk of becoming one, even with potential changes in climate patterns caused climate change/global warming.

You are seeing real issues effects... but you are continually missing the --whole-- picture, which explains why discussing deserts on southeast water policy isn't relevant. It also better explains why Atlanta gets more rain over NYC, Chicago, LA, and Seattle.

If anyone wants to find out more..... look up a world map of Koppen's Climatic Designations and look up areas that are designated Cfa, Cwa, Cwb, and Cfc, Cfc, Csa, and Csb. They are mesothermal climates. They are extremely common and more prominent in the southeast of continental land masses or along a thin west coast strip if there is landmass that pushes the air up and blocks in the smaller amounts of rain from the oceans to the west.

I'll admit you started to close to addressing this, but then you didn't go far enough and failed to explain it's relation to water policy and incorrectly started discussion the arid environments just because we are close to a certain lattitude that has arid continental areas in other places of continental landmasses.

By the way ... extra fact for anyone interested in mesothermal, C (ie. Cfa, Csa, etc..), climates. About 55% of the earth's population resides in these types of climate areas, but it accounts for far less than a quarter of the world's landmass. This trend directly corresponds to plentiful access to water, humid environment for farming/natural plant diversity, and moderate temperatures.

By definition a humid subtropical environment is not arid and gets alot more rain than water can evaporate (in the case of Atlanta...year round).
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Old 02-24-2011, 09:30 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,043,926 times
Reputation: 1469
In 1998, I stopped at a QuikTrip on Upper Riverdale Road and bought gas for 63 cents a gallon. I then went less than a mile up the road to a Cub Foods and purchased a gallon of spring water for 99 cents. I took a picture of that 63 cent gas because I knew future generations would find it insane that you could purchase a gallon of a completely non-renewable resource for less than two-thirds the price of freakin water. I think I now need to scour the boxes in my basement for those pictures.

Why am I bringing this up? I'm getting lectures on the Koppen classification system and precipitation levels of North Georgia as if people in the Atlanta suburbs catch rain in cisterns on their roofs for a water supply. Atlanta's water issues have less to do with the amount of rainfall and everything to do with economics. Gas was sold for 63 cents in 1998 not because it was plentiful, but because it wasn't at a premium. The Hubbard Peak was reached almost 40 years ago and gas prices still went down in the late 1990s.

You just don't go outside when it rains and open your mouth to get drinking water and you don't wash your car and your clothes in the Chattahoochee River. The water has to be interred by a dam, cleaned, and piped down water mains to businesses and homes. This takes energy, and a lot of it. The production of energy and the construction of infrastructure takes capital. I have no doubt that there is enough discharge in the Chattahoochee to quench an Atlanta that grows to 8 million. But tell that to Alabama, Florida, and South Georgia. Metro Atlanta doesn't withdraw water from the Chattahoochee with a garden hose attached to a siphon. It gets it from a reservoir interred by a dam that produces hydroelectricity.

A certain amount of energy has to be produced to clean and pump the water, and a certain volume of water has to flow through the dam to produce enough electricity. Why was gas 63 cents in 1998? Because the demand was low. So therefore the cost of energy to pump out oil (which no longer gushes in old deposits) was low, the cost of refining was low, and therefore the cost at the pump was low. With the rise in SUVs, demand increased and then the war in Iraq allowed OPEC to limit supply (even to their detriment) which raised costs.

So the cost of energy to maintain a pre-existing water transmission infrastructure is high. The cost to update the infrastructure is astronomical. The cost to build an infrastructure for an additional 3 million people is unfathomable. And remember, metropolitan Atlanta does not have carte blanche to withdraw as much water as it sees fit out of the Chattahoochee. First, it is just outright illegal and the federal government never gave Atlanta a green light to withdraw as much water as it needs in perpetuity. Second, to withdraw more water without dramatically increasing the capacity of Buford Dam will lower hydroelectric output, causing the need to transmit energy in from somewhere else. As more energy is lost the further it must be transmitted, this further increases energy costs. From Georgia Power:

"Damming the Etowah River with Allatoona Dam near Cartersville meant reducing flooding in the Rome , Georgia area, but it also gave the Army Corps of Engineers a source of power. It began producing electricity on January 31, 1950. By that time land was being purchased in northeast Georgia to create Lake Lanier . Groundbreaking would occur a month later on March 1, 1950, and in 1957 the power plant at Lanier came on-line. In spite of the massive output of hydroelectric power, these facilities actually provide less than 2% of Georgia's energy. Most of it comes from coal-fired facilities like Georgia Power's Plant Hammond on the Coosa River just west of downtown Rome."

So with 8 million people, you are going to further diminish hydroelectric output just to supply drinking water? You are going to create an even heavier reliance on coal? Well, they certainly aren't making any new coal. And congratulations, while North Georgia is one of the rainiest spots in the U.S. or whatever you all are spouting off about, you can't force it to rain more to even maintain the volume necessary to present hydroelectric output. If anything, as we have seen in the past decade chances are precipitation levels will be less.

So thank you for the lesson on climate. Remember, climate is long-term weather patterns. So discount my explanation on deserts if you must. But to smarty pants that thought it funny that Atlanta was 4 degrees north of the 30 degree "desert belt line", it only took a .6 degree shift in the earth's orbit to turn the entire Sahara (1/3 of the second largest landmass in world) from a grassland to a desert. So:

"Given the very strong dependence of vegetation on water availability, the end of the 'Green Sahara' came about quite suddenly around 5,500 years ago," Schmidt said. "Thus, a very slow change in the orbit (led) to an abrupt collapse in that ecosystem."

So much for the City of Forests. You are banking on Atlanta having access to a constant level of precipitation flowing into the Chattahoochee for the next thirty years when ONCE AGAIN Atlanta was down to a 90-day supply of water 3 and a half years ago. There is only so much you can calibrate gauges on the Buford Dam to account for sudden and dramatic changes in rainfall. So let's try doing it again with an additional 3 million people. So with your fantastic explanation of climate you did not take into account that long term weather patterns that account for climatic regimes take thousands of years to define. Atlanta could collapse in less than a decade with unabated growth. Pacific Northwest-style urban growth development boundary anyone? Wait, what am I talking about? Even sprawled out Miami-Dade County has one!
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:18 PM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,646,548 times
Reputation: 1590
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
Aw, they'll all just move to new areas and create new suburbs. That will mean new roads. Right?
Here comes the outer loop
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:32 PM
 
439 posts, read 753,658 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullbear View Post
30 year out predictions are not worth the paper they are written on.

Tell me what the ARC said 30 years ago. Ill bet it wasnt even close.

Shoot, I would have near zero confidence in their THREE year prediction.

LOL True that. I am amazed how ppl on this forum fall for this. Even if it were to come true. I cannot imagine Atlanta having the infrastructure to accomodate more people at the rate things are going now. This is a joke.
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:36 PM
 
439 posts, read 753,658 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
In 1998, I stopped at a QuikTrip on Upper Riverdale Road and bought gas for 63 cents a gallon. I then went less than a mile up the road to a Cub Foods and purchased a gallon of spring water for 99 cents. I took a picture of that 63 cent gas because I knew future generations would find it insane that you could purchase a gallon of a completely non-renewable resource for less than two-thirds the price of freakin water. I think I now need to scour the boxes in my basement for those pictures.

Why am I bringing this up? I'm getting lectures on the Koppen classification system and precipitation levels of North Georgia as if people in the Atlanta suburbs catch rain in cisterns on their roofs for a water supply. Atlanta's water issues have less to do with the amount of rainfall and everything to do with economics. Gas was sold for 63 cents in 1998 not because it was plentiful, but because it wasn't at a premium. The Hubbard Peak was reached almost 40 years ago and gas prices still went down in the late 1990s.

You just don't go outside when it rains and open your mouth to get drinking water and you don't wash your car and your clothes in the Chattahoochee River. The water has to be interred by a dam, cleaned, and piped down water mains to businesses and homes. This takes energy, and a lot of it. The production of energy and the construction of infrastructure takes capital. I have no doubt that there is enough discharge in the Chattahoochee to quench an Atlanta that grows to 8 million. But tell that to Alabama, Florida, and South Georgia. Metro Atlanta doesn't withdraw water from the Chattahoochee with a garden hose attached to a siphon. It gets it from a reservoir interred by a dam that produces hydroelectricity.

A certain amount of energy has to be produced to clean and pump the water, and a certain volume of water has to flow through the dam to produce enough electricity. Why was gas 63 cents in 1998? Because the demand was low. So therefore the cost of energy to pump out oil (which no longer gushes in old deposits) was low, the cost of refining was low, and therefore the cost at the pump was low. With the rise in SUVs, demand increased and then the war in Iraq allowed OPEC to limit supply (even to their detriment) which raised costs.

So the cost of energy to maintain a pre-existing water transmission infrastructure is high. The cost to update the infrastructure is astronomical. The cost to build an infrastructure for an additional 3 million people is unfathomable. And remember, metropolitan Atlanta does not have carte blanche to withdraw as much water as it sees fit out of the Chattahoochee. First, it is just outright illegal and the federal government never gave Atlanta a green light to withdraw as much water as it needs in perpetuity. Second, to withdraw more water without dramatically increasing the capacity of Buford Dam will lower hydroelectric output, causing the need to transmit energy in from somewhere else. As more energy is lost the further it must be transmitted, this further increases energy costs. From Georgia Power:

"Damming the Etowah River with Allatoona Dam near Cartersville meant reducing flooding in the Rome , Georgia area, but it also gave the Army Corps of Engineers a source of power. It began producing electricity on January 31, 1950. By that time land was being purchased in northeast Georgia to create Lake Lanier . Groundbreaking would occur a month later on March 1, 1950, and in 1957 the power plant at Lanier came on-line. In spite of the massive output of hydroelectric power, these facilities actually provide less than 2% of Georgia's energy. Most of it comes from coal-fired facilities like Georgia Power's Plant Hammond on the Coosa River just west of downtown Rome."

So with 8 million people, you are going to further diminish hydroelectric output just to supply drinking water? You are going to create an even heavier reliance on coal? Well, they certainly aren't making any new coal. And congratulations, while North Georgia is one of the rainiest spots in the U.S. or whatever you all are spouting off about, you can't force it to rain more to even maintain the volume necessary to present hydroelectric output. If anything, as we have seen in the past decade chances are precipitation levels will be less.

So thank you for the lesson on climate. Remember, climate is long-term weather patterns. So discount my explanation on deserts if you must. But to smarty pants that thought it funny that Atlanta was 4 degrees north of the 30 degree "desert belt line", it only took a .6 degree shift in the earth's orbit to turn the entire Sahara (1/3 of the second largest landmass in world) from a grassland to a desert. So:

"Given the very strong dependence of vegetation on water availability, the end of the 'Green Sahara' came about quite suddenly around 5,500 years ago," Schmidt said. "Thus, a very slow change in the orbit (led) to an abrupt collapse in that ecosystem."

So much for the City of Forests. You are banking on Atlanta having access to a constant level of precipitation flowing into the Chattahoochee for the next thirty years when ONCE AGAIN Atlanta was down to a 90-day supply of water 3 and a half years ago. There is only so much you can calibrate gauges on the Buford Dam to account for sudden and dramatic changes in rainfall. So let's try doing it again with an additional 3 million people. So with your fantastic explanation of climate you did not take into account that long term weather patterns that account for climatic regimes take thousands of years to define. Atlanta could collapse in less than a decade with unabated growth. Pacific Northwest-style urban growth development boundary anyone? Wait, what am I talking about? Even sprawled out Miami-Dade County has one!
Hopefully fans of Atlanta weather will have the IQ to comprehend your post.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:15 AM
 
8,283 posts, read 12,429,321 times
Reputation: 4974
Steelers10 in regards to Miami's urban growth development boundary it was set in the 1970s way before suburban sprawl began marching west towards the Everglades. The county commisioners then had the foresight to know that unbridled growth was not sustainable with the growth the county was expiriencing at the time. Water resources certainly was an issue back then too.

The South Florida Water Management Agency also limited growth in Broward & Palm Beach counties as well. The tri county metro area has about the same population as that of Atlanta yet the Miami MSA only occupies roughly 1100 square miles which will never be expanded. I don't know the size of the Urbanized area of Atlanta but I'm sure it's a lot larger than 1100 sq. miles.
With that being said how would the Atlanta metro be able to implement a urban growth development boundary when you are practically dealing with over 20 counties who all want growth as well?
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