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Old 02-27-2011, 12:27 PM
 
357 posts, read 698,937 times
Reputation: 179

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^ditto... always enjoy reading their posts
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
1,262 posts, read 2,647,384 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
Not my words or opinion:

The Upper Chattahoochee and Flint riverkeeper say the Georgia legislature Thursday took a major step backward in resolving the state's water supply disputes with its downstream neighbors.
A bill was passed to expedite the construction of a reservoir, which is in part an amenity lake in the midst of a projected upscale subdivision in metro Atlanta. This step is certain to undermine negotiations with Alabama and Florida over the water in the Chattahoochee River Basin, according to Sally Bethea, Upper Chattahoochee Riverkeeper.
"If this reservoir is built, its operation will result in a significant and entirely unnecessary loss of water to the river and communities downstream in Georgia, Alabama and Florida," Bethea said. "It threatens our efforts to develop an equitable, water sharing agreement and will negate the water savings achieved through the new conservation bill."
Three cities in South Fulton County applied to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers last year to build a 440-acre reservoir on Bear Creek, a tributary to the Chattahoochee, and pump 32 million gallons of water per day (MGD) from the river to fill the impoundment. Federal agencies, the city of Atlanta and numerous environmental organizations objected to the construction of the project in comments to the Corps.
"Thirty-two million gallons per day is a significant percentage of what Georgia and Florida are arguing over at the Florida line," said Gordon Rogers of the Flint Riverkeeper. "This is a greedy water grab by metro north Georgia that harms the Chattahoochee and puts more pressure on the Flint to make up the difference."

Also not my words or opinion:

WHAT IS AN INTERBASIN TRANSFER (IBT)?

An IBT occurs when water is withdrawn from one river basin and used, consumed, or discharged into another basin. In metro Atlanta, these transfers take place in almost every county, but they incur real economic and environmental costs — and currently, there are not sufficient safeguards in place to protect our rivers and downstream communities.

The Gwinnett County project mentioned above would be great if that is what always took place. But an IBT is essentially when water is taken out of the Chattahoochee or Flint, used, and then pumped into the Oconee River Basin which flows toward the Atlantic Ocean. It is actually a good thing for soil to absorb rainfall because it seeps down the path of least resistance and causes rivers to be perennial rather than ephemeral. All of the storm drainage systems and sprawling blacktop promotes maximum runoff. So I continue to miss how this has no impact on the lower Chattahoochee Basin.

But all of the posters saying I am a naysayer keep talking about what can be done. Who would dispute how effectively the Chattahoochee River Basin could be managed with comprehensive water management planning and a lot of money? I'm talking about what is happening now and what isn't being done, NOW. So yes, a "dam further south" could do many things. But as you can see from the 1st quotation above, a "dam further south" is not going to happen.

So don't tell me that the "greedy water grab by metro north Georgia" is not impacting river transportation and irrigation downstream in South Georgia, Florida, and Alabama. Georgia has to tell it to the judge. But when the southern half of your own state is not on your side I don't see a very convincing defensive argument impending.
OK, I by no means claim to know much about this. However, Gwinnett Co apparently puts back 2/3rds of the water that is used from Lanier with the new pipeline. It does state however some is pumped into the Yellow River as well. Is that what you're referring to?

Gwinnett opens gates on water reclamation effort to Lanier *| ajc.com
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Old 02-27-2011, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,103 posts, read 8,536,751 times
Reputation: 5297
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsonga View Post
OK, I by no means claim to know much about this. However, Gwinnett Co apparently puts back 2/3rds of the water that is used from Lanier with the new pipeline. It does state however some is pumped into the Yellow River as well. Is that what you're referring to?

Gwinnett opens gates on water reclamation effort to Lanier *| ajc.com
Gwinnett Co. has a permit to dump treated waste water into the Yellow River Basin. It is about 25% of the county's total. (The Yellow River flows into the Ocmulgee River and into the Atlantic). It is unlikely to ever increase, because of the political pressures of removing water from the Chattahoochee Basin. However, too much of the sewage infrastructure runs to the Yellow River plant for that to ever go away.

They are currently expanding the Yellow River treatment plant as an efficiency program and decommissioning two other older treatment plants in Lilburn that feed into the Yellow River at this time.

The reason I mention this... There is another major water treatment plant in the far western corner of the county west of Norcross. This plant also has a reuse water pipe connecting it to the Wayne Hill treatment plant. That article didn't discuss that at all. I suspect, but can't say for sure. The Yellow River treatment plant will eventually be connected to the same pipeline.

Here is a map of the Gwinnett County Sewer system...

http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/static..._sewer_map.pdf

A few things to spot out

-The light pink lines are the reuse mains. They don't just dump water into the Lake, but also provide water to golf courses, non-potable customers, etc..

-They have a series of flow management devices that allow them to move capacity in different directions. Redundancy if they need to take a plant off line and it allows them to transfer heavier flows to Wayne Hill.

-Note the lack of sewer access to surburban neighborhoods south of Lilburn. This will be an expensive long-term issue for gwinnett. The first major neighborhoods of the late 60s and early to mid 70s in Gwinnett were mostly septic-only. It will be expensive to add sewer connections to be able to put that treated water back into the Chattahoochee Basin. Out of about 240,000 houses... about 80,000 are on septic (and of course the heavier use customers in retail and industrial locations are on sewer). There will always be some, but I suspect over time there will be more pressure to add local sewer access in the south Lilburn area.

-New neighborhoods pretty much have to be on sewer, so the long term goals to put treated waster water into the Chattahoochee and reduce flows from the Buford Dam. The problem with this is developers look for the cheapest way to add sewer. Notice in the central easy parts of the county... new developments not near a sewer main use small sewage pumps (green triangle). These are a long-term financial drain on the county for operations and maintenance, so we are likely to see some long-term investments in sewer mains in those areas eventually.


Also, be careful not to be misled about the rhetoric some people put out there... We aren't being greedy. People need water to live...alot of people live here and are moving here. It is a shame that has to come down to rhetorical phrases like being greedy.

However, from a political stand point... Florida is refusing to negotiate with us... Alabama teeter totters from negotiating and not.

The court ruling had absolutely NOTHING to do with Atlanta and Georgia's right to access water in various amounts from the Chattahoochee. It only has to do with access to Lake Lanier's holding capacity. If they refuse to negotiate with us.... we HAVE to build reservoirs. It is A) the only thing we can do to put pressure on them to negotiate and negotiate fairly B) If we eventually don't have access to Lake Lanier... we have to store water somewhere. But there is plenty of water.... It is just political maneuvering to how it is stored and how it is treated and used. If you hear nasty rhetoric from anyone on any side and it isn't a legitimate study......it is worth ignoring if you want to be serious about the issues at hand.

I know there will continue to be naysayers and people who get stuck on more emotional rhetorical phrases... but I am putting this out there for the serious people to consider on what the issues at hand actually are.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:45 PM
 
Location: QUEENS NYC
442 posts, read 1,208,553 times
Reputation: 277
the world wont be around in 2040
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:20 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,048,179 times
Reputation: 1469
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Gwinnett Co. has a permit to dump treated waste water into the Yellow River Basin. It is about 25% of the county's total. (The Yellow River flows into the Ocmulgee River and into the Atlantic). It is unlikely to ever increase, because of the political pressures of removing water from the Chattahoochee Basin. However, too much of the sewage infrastructure runs to the Yellow River plant for that to ever go away.
This is actually what is happening. Detrimental to the Chattahoochee River Basin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
They are currently expanding the Yellow River treatment plant as an efficiency program and decommissioning two other older treatment plants in Lilburn that feed into the Yellow River at this time.

The reason I mention this... There is another major water treatment plant in the far western corner of the county west of Norcross. This plant also has a reuse water pipe connecting it to the Wayne Hill treatment plant. That article didn't discuss that at all. I suspect, but can't say for sure. The Yellow River treatment plant will eventually be connected to the same pipeline.
This has not happened and is just a hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Here is a map of the Gwinnett County Sewer system...

http://www.gwinnettcounty.com/static..._sewer_map.pdf

-Note the lack of sewer access to surburban neighborhoods south of Lilburn. This will be an expensive long-term issue for gwinnett. The first major neighborhoods of the late 60s and early to mid 70s in Gwinnett were mostly septic-only. It will be expensive to add sewer connections to be able to put that treated water back into the Chattahoochee Basin. Out of about 240,000 houses... about 80,000 are on septic (and of course the heavier use customers in retail and industrial locations are on sewer). There will always be some, but I suspect over time there will be more pressure to add local sewer access in the south Lilburn area.

-New neighborhoods pretty much have to be on sewer, so the long term goals to put treated waster water into the Chattahoochee and reduce flows from the Buford Dam. The problem with this is developers look for the cheapest way to add sewer. Notice in the central easy parts of the county... new developments not near a sewer main use small sewage pumps (green triangle). These are a long-term financial drain on the county for operations and maintenance, so we are likely to see some long-term investments in sewer mains in those areas eventually.


The bold is actually what is happening; it is detrimental to the Chattahoochee River Basin. The red has not happened and is just a hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Also, be careful not to be misled about the rhetoric some people put out there... We aren't being greedy. People need water to live...alot of people live here and are moving here. It is a shame that has to come down to rhetorical phrases like being greedy.

However, from a political stand point... Florida is refusing to negotiate with us... Alabama teeter totters from negotiating and not.

The court ruling had absolutely NOTHING to do with Atlanta and Georgia's right to access water in various amounts from the Chattahoochee. It only has to do with access to Lake Lanier's holding capacity. If they refuse to negotiate with us.... we HAVE to build reservoirs. It is A) the only thing we can do to put pressure on them to negotiate and negotiate fairly B) If we eventually don't have access to Lake Lanier... we have to store water somewhere. But there is plenty of water.... It is just political maneuvering to how it is stored and how it is treated and used. If you hear nasty rhetoric from anyone on any side and it isn't a legitimate study......it is worth ignoring if you want to be serious about the issues at hand.

I know there will continue to be naysayers and people who get stuck on more emotional rhetorical phrases... but I am putting this out there for the serious people to consider on what the issues at hand actually are.
Since Georgia "has" to build reservoirs then whip out the checkbook! When is the groundbreaking; I would like to be there! Don't talk about what Atlanta needs to do..DO IT! When Atlanta starts doing something about its unplanned, unmitigated sprawl then I will stop posting links. But if Atlanta doesn't have a water crisis and welcomes growth management, then why is there an issue with this "controversial" dam to help resolve the water "crisis"? This is news from Atlanta, not from "outsiders" criticizing Atlanta's woes.

This poster is correct, do not get stuck on emotional rhetorical phrases. It is clear that what is currently going on and what should be happening are two separate issues all together. Any problems that Georgia (and by extension metro Atlanta) has with Florida and Alabama and with water management can be mitigated by planning. This is exactly what metropolitan Atlanta has not done in reality. So be aware when someone trots out some planning document from the ARC about what should be done. Just wait for the groundbreaking of any of these "plans" then you will know it is reality.

When you look at the American Southeast, there are a "big three" of metropolitan areas, Washington D.C. (top), Atlanta (middle), and Miami (bottom). All three are roughly the same size (about 5 1/2 million people) and all three implemented fixed rail mass transit subsidized by the federal government given out to increase densities and plan growth for a future to reduce automobile reliance and improve air quality.

Like Atlanta, the leading edge of suburban growth in Metropolitan DC is toward the north. Montgomery County, Maryland has long since adopted an urban growth boundary. For those who contend that suburbanization in Baltimore is actually a function of DC sprawl, Cecil County (to the north) has also created an urban growth boundary, not coincidentally described and housed in the Cecil County Master Water & Sewer Plan. Some people on this post have described how DC has the worst traffic in the nation. Well, take that up with the traditionally conservative General Assembly of Virginia. Despite Virginia having some Open Space Zoning, the General Assembly hates Northern Virginia and allows for business tax incentives to attempt to siphon businesses away from Maryland but does little or nothing to manage growth or transportation issues.

Maryland has just completed the first stretch of the Inter County Connector (yes, a NEW highway!) and as we speak (not planning) local, state, and regional government planning steers high-density growth toward Metro Station corridors whether developers only want to build single-family homes or not. Even Fairfax County in anti-planning Virginia has new Metro Stations currently under construction into the heart of Tyson's Corner driven sprawl that will extend the Silver Line out to Reston by 2013 and then out to Dulles International Airport by 2016. This is not a plan or a wish. This is happening right now. But to Virginia's defense, its largest city (and once fastest growing and most sprawling) is not in Northern Virginia but Virginia Beach. Virginia Beach already had an urban growth boundary in place.

To wrap this up, Miami also has an urban growth boundary. Despite being constantly under assault and challenged in court, the boundary has been successful in shifting growth northward along transit corridors and away from environmentally sensitive areas where the water supply comes from. What was the problem this poster discussed before? A new reservoir could not be created south of Buford Dam because it was already built out.

Despite having a much better job market and real estate market than Atlanta, metropolitan DC has implemented measures to slow growth. South Florida grew as much as it possibly could but growth ground to a halt when the metro area just became way too linear. Despite all three having the same populations, metro Miami is 8th in density, metro DC is 18th in density (largely a function of sprawling Virginia), and metropolitan Atlanta is 66th. So yes, call me a naysayer, but Atlanta's poor job market, uncontrolled growth, and water litigation issues compounded by a near catastrophic water shortage 3 1/2 years ago that this poster refuses to acknowledge just seems like a recipe for disaster. So it's not to say that Atlanta cannot mangage growth successfully, metropolitan Atlanta is just not doing it.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:42 AM
 
Location: Tower of Heaven
4,023 posts, read 6,740,783 times
Reputation: 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeorgia View Post
ARC: Metro Atlanta population to hit 8 million by 2040 | Atlanta Business Chronicle

Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) on Wednesday predicted the metro area will add some 3 million people over the next 30 years.
That would bring the 20-county metro Atlanta area’s population to 8 million -- about the current population of Manhattan and roughly double metro Atlanta’s population in 2000 -- by 2040.
Unbelievable
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:38 AM
 
6 posts, read 9,932 times
Reputation: 15
Steelers,

for what it's worth I've talked to two very well traveled and connected people over the last two years who have told me they doubt that Atlanta will turn around. This board is full of teens and wacko's, so you are arguing with fools more than likely. As soon as another place makes sense for our family, we are gone.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,333 posts, read 23,523,413 times
Reputation: 3952
Quote:
Originally Posted by solewd View Post
Steelers,

for what it's worth I've talked to two very well traveled and connected people over the last two years who have told me they doubt that Atlanta will turn around. This board is full of teens and wacko's, so you are arguing with fools more than likely. As soon as another place makes sense for our family, we are gone.
Nothing like a broadside ad hominem attack to turn an argument your way.

Time heals all wounds. Atlanta may not be the same as it was in 2004-2005 with regards to the housing market for a few (or even several) years, but in time the economy here will approach normalcy.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
969 posts, read 1,736,813 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by solewd View Post
Steelers,

for what it's worth I've talked to two very well traveled and connected people over the last two years who have told me they doubt that Atlanta will turn around. This board is full of teens and wacko's, so you are arguing with fools more than likely. As soon as another place makes sense for our family, we are gone.
Sorry you feel that way, but just because some of us care about where we live and want to see it prosper doesn't make us "teens" and "wacko's". I'm 25 by the way, with a college degree, and a full time job. I'm not a fool. I realize Atlanta isn't perfect, but to say it will never turnaround is sort of a ridiculous statement. What good will it do if everyone just got up and left? That's not how it works.

Atlanta has and always will benefit from its location - the South is growing faster than any other region in the country and Atlanta is well positioned in the South/East Coast. The Port of Savannah, Hartsfield Airport, our colleges, freight rail hubs, and a robust highway system (although congested) are major assets. In 2012 we will vote to continue to invest in our infrastructure and I hope people in Metro Atlanta aren't stupid enough to vote it down.

Also, I have a hard time believing our water is just going to get cut off in 2012. Of course, that isn't an excuse to do nothing about the situation, but we kind of have our hands and legs tied. We need to build reservoirs anyways and the Governor has put money aside for this already. We also need to do a better job with conservation.

Finally, Miami has the Everglades to the west and the ocean to the east as a natural urban growth boundary, so it's much easier for them to guide growth in a more organized fashion. Atlanta doesn't have anything and can keep growing outward (the bad traffic has seemed to slow the outward growth some and more people are moving intown, which is always a good thing). Although I agree we need to enact some boundaries (like around water sources), where else do we draw the line and how do we do that? Who gets economic development and who doesn't? It's a lot more complicated than just drawing a line.
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Old 03-02-2011, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 12,804,215 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
So yes, call me a naysayer, but Atlanta's poor job market, uncontrolled growth, and water litigation issues compounded by a near catastrophic water shortage 3 1/2 years ago that this poster refuses to acknowledge just seems like a recipe for disaster. So it's not to say that Atlanta cannot mangage growth successfully, metropolitan Atlanta is just not doing it.
And in summation, THIS is the true bottom line with you - each and every time you go on one of these diatribes. In my opinion, this is nothing more than a very thinly veiled (but very well worded) wish for the eventual demise of Metro Atlanta. Period.

Your words speak volumes. Just don't hold your breath.
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