U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 02-24-2011, 08:55 PM
 
12,940 posts, read 21,019,991 times
Reputation: 4088

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA View Post
I agree with looping the shuttle through West Midtown and Tech (and possibly as far south as Centennial Olympic Park), but it HAS to connect to Arts Center station (maybe even Midtown and North Ave stations, as well). Anyone taking it from Arts Center should be able to use their Breeze cards to transfer to the shuttle. Others catching the shuttle throughout the loop should be able to pay the small fee with a Breeze card or change.

This.

 
Old 02-24-2011, 09:03 PM
 
37 posts, read 72,014 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by plessthanpointohfive View Post
Someone mentioned the Disney-like feel...that's exactly how it always seemed and what put me off of AS as a place to go for food/entertainment, other than the theater. The whole idea of AS is contrived as an urban live/work/play. Anything contrived starts out with a lack of character or "soul", but it can be overcome it's resources. I felt like AS would just sort of limp along and eventually decline because it's resources were so uninspired and generic. The move they're making, however, is VERY VERY promising with regards to making AS actually part of Atlanta's neighborhood system.
We have a good discussion going here. Atlantic Station doesn't feel natural or organic enough. Neighborhood shops and services as well as connections to the neighborhoods would go a long way to improving that. The neighborhood along Deering Street has bad pedestrian and vehicle connections. Also when driving or walking along 14th Street there really isn't good access to AS because the the streets are not aligned at 16th street. Although Atlantic Station is supposed to be urban, the orientation of IKEA, Target, and Publix do little to help this feel natural. Local and neighborhood oriented businesses will go a long way. I think relocating public and private 'institutions' would help. A college satellite campus would change things up. Otherwise I think the new master developers have a challenge ahead of them.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 09:36 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,112 posts, read 5,135,026 times
Reputation: 898
What I always kind of wondered is why most of the residential is completely separated from the retail. I think 17th could be the kind of street that is lined with shops and places to go, but instead it's lined with sterile faux stucco apartments with no street interaction. Granted, it's a somewhat quiet place as a result, but if the ground level commercial space was meant to be there for residents above and nearby residents who would walk or bike on over then it wouldn't be that loud or seedy at all.

Now that CBRE Investors is the master developer, I hope I can catch news bits hear and there on what the plans are (though as long as these bits aren't super confidential ).

Also, something needs to be done about 17th St bridge. Nothing right now since the economy is still down and there is not exactly a destination on the Midtown side (well, except for my building hehe), but that bridge is not very pedestrian friendly and does not do a good job of providing connectivity. Some small shade trees and wider sidewalks and maybe some cool LEDs like on the 14th would be great. I predict that in the next cycle, the area of Midtown north of 14th will see stuff happen. Maybe there will be enough on either side of AS to provide enough business for a vendor or two on the 17th St bridge...just to keep the commotion going and provide continuous connectivity.

And AS is completely isolated from Tech without a car. There is no way in H*ll someone in their right mind would make the walk from Tech to AS at night, especially late at night. It's no secret all the crime in Homepark (once again, committed by people who do not live anywhere nearby). Of course criminals will always come in to a place with a high density of affluent professionals and tourists, but more can be done to clean it all up and make it more difficult for low lifes to rob, harass, or assault people/residents. Doing something about the theater and the "late night" restaurants that oddly employ bouncers at the door is a priority.

I still think the shuttle can forgo Art Center Station. Just by hitting up that station it's implied that those who are using the station to get to AS are visitors from other areas of town, and these are not the people that the new owners of AS are trying to cater to. It's the AS residents themselves, Midtown and West Midtown residents, and students at SCAD, John Marshall, Tech, Emory Medical, and GSU. Shuttles should serve the people they are trying to attract, not the people they are trying not to attract.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,273,490 times
Reputation: 4205
I agree this is a healthy discussion and I believe for the most part we are all reaching some general agreements, but I want to throw a few things out there. I also want to remind people a few of the things Atlantic Station did right... a few of the problems aren't necessarily their fault... and I also have a few other topics for discussion going into the future.

First I wanted to discuss the retail/residential mix. They included some loft space and I will admit... it wasn't alot. However, you have to work in the context of market demand. The retail there is a major 'destination' area. They might not be trying to be Lenox and want to target those who live in midtown, GT, etc... but it is a major destination, even if the main retail market area isn't meant to be most of Atlanta. Most people don't want to live with that much noise/traffic. Some people do, but you won't be able to sell a whole lot of units at a stable price, unless it is a residential highrise where you have well defined residential areas inside the building.

The mixed use and residential development I want to see is retail that isn't meant to be a major destination center, but people from the neighborhood and perhaps from Home Park, since it is integrated. Retail that has a smaller market area, increases traffic by a lower amount.

If I was the developer I would also centralize the neighborhood retail along Mecaslin St and create small neighborhood plaza (Like a little cobble stone semi-circle with the intersection where a few tables, a tree and a planter/seat around the tree and a sidewalk (I'm thinking @ 16th and 17 st.). Nothing big, but a central neighborhood/resident draw. However I would also do this, because I realize some people shopping for a condo or an apartment will not want to live on the side of the building where that street it (it won't be very noisy... but it will be more so). What I would be creating is neighborhood atmosphere, but consumer choice. If someone absolutely doesn't want to live with the possibility of increase noise through their window...most units don't face that way, but for those that like it or don't mind that is available. On street level though... there is a neighborhood center where a neighborhood atmosphere can be created. It would just draw into one corridor.

-Big Box stores....

Well remember they are developers. These are paying tenants and/or purchasing consumers. They were marketable there, they helped make the whole development possible, Ikea got in early, and they actually provide good retail opportunity for people intown. However, one thing I like about how it was incorporated and want to draw to people's attention. The Target at the back of the development is along the railroad tracks. The railroad tracks are going to create a connectivity barrier anyways, so it is the perfect place to put buildings that block connectivity rather than help it. Ikea is also at the edge of the Atlantic Station and again along the railroad tracks. This is something I really feel the original developer got right on. I can't think of a better way to incorporate them into to the development.

What I will say about Ikea... I wish they reoriented the pick-up parking lot to the back (railroad side) and taken parking off of 16th st. Just because Ikea is there doesn't mean they have to hurt feel of the neighborhood (even if it is inorganic). They could have put in one row of condo/apartments that faced into 16th street, they could have put in a few retail/office outparcels, or they could have shifted the Ikea building closer to 16th street and put up a nice facade with some Ikea banners. I'm also not digging that little parking lot between 16th and 17th street. It looks like prime wasted space. It is unnecessarily killing the feel of the neighborhood after they put all the effort and expense at having parking under the building.

The comments about Home Park.... I'm not saying that are necessarily wrong, but it is outside the redevelopment of Atlantic Station itself. I don't think they did anything wrong with southern connectivity outright. It is a 7 or 8 block walk, most of the residents there are students or connected with the college. The crime there isn't really their fault. I never lived there, but from a friend of mine who did ... I always heard Atlantic Station made things better than when the Abandoned Steel Mill was there. With that said... perhaps the city needs to come up with a long-term plan to re-do the streetscape and lighting up and down State St. Georgia Tech gave their end a nice face lift with bike lanes and perhaps the AS TAD might be able to help fund it. I'm not sure what the status of TAD are (are they exhausted?). Doing it might require extra right of way from residents on that street or doing away with on-street parking along State st., which might bring some local opposition (?).

I also felt the development missed two big opportunities for residential culture at Atlantic Station (and residential property values/demand)

1) While there is plenty of green space, most of it is aesthetic. There are a few places worthy of sitting down, reading, etc... but there is a notable lack of usable park space. There is no place to play frisbee, run around, play with the kids, or your niece or nephew that is visiting for the weekend. Preferably a place that is out of view from 17th st. where most the traffic cuts through the neighborhood.

There is still a chance to retrofit a small park in, through 2 creative ideas... I'm not sure how the financials/ownership issues could work out.
The first idea would be to incorporate park space at this undeveloped triangle, which is slated to have a residential building. Atlanta, ga - Google Maps
Then plant some trees at the corner to cut down on noise from 17th st. and provide semi- privacy from through-traffic. Then move a future residential building to the other side of 17th st on the square Ikea Parking lot. That space would produce more residential unit in a more marketable way and give the neighborhood a more cohesive feel.

The second park idea... I will come back to in a bit...

2) The second missed opportunity. Atlanta, ga - Google Maps Take a look at the sidewalk going around the retention pond. I like alot of things about this space. It is aesthetic appealing. It cuts down on noise in the residential area from through-traffic. It cuts the traffic in half in front of each residential building. The one simple thing I don't understand. Why is the sidewalk around the pond right up against the road? I know there is a steep embankment there now, but if it could have been engineered to allow a sidewalk or even more of a 'path' with some separation from the road and some landscaping in between it could have made a wonderful jogging walking space for residents.
I'm just not digging the exact placement/design of the sidewalk. Atlanta, ga - Google Maps

Ok another idea.. I want to throw out there and see what people think.

One interesting thing I have noticed about the Loring Heights neighborhood is they can connect to 17th street without having to get on to Northside Dr (and it's extra traffic) via Bishop St. There are also brownfields there. Is there a way to create attractive pedestrian/bike only connections in one or two places (one closer to target and another closer to the residential area) and continue the redevelopment moving north?
Atlanta, ga - Google Maps

If so, I was thinking the city/AS could site a neighborhood park right across the tracks from the residential side ped/bike bridge.

That whole neighborhood has a good potential rear connection to Atlantic station a good mix of nice houses, brownfields, and old apartments begging to be torn down and redeveloped, but also has good access to I-75 There could also be better bike/Ped access to Atlantic station to the area north of the Brookwood split via Deering Rd and it's bridge over I-75. I'll admit the bridge is narrow, unappealing, and it wouldn't be cost-effective to widen, but it is there nonetheless.

Anyways... sorry in advance for all the typos... I never meant this to get so long when I started typing it. I don't necessarily expect every bit of this to bring alot of agreement, but hopefully it can bring in some healthy discussion points.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 12:40 AM
 
Location: New York City Area
394 posts, read 550,988 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimms3 View Post
What I always kind of wondered is why most of the residential is completely separated from the retail. I think 17th could be the kind of street that is lined with shops and places to go, but instead it's lined with sterile faux stucco apartments with no street interaction. Granted, it's a somewhat quiet place as a result, but if the ground level commercial space was meant to be there for residents above and nearby residents who would walk or bike on over then it wouldn't be that loud or seedy at all.
Jsimms3, I'm completely in agreement with you on that one. However, there are still parcels of land on the west side of Atlantic Station that would be great for mid rise, mixed use developments with retail that could cater to surrounding residents. This would further connect and integrate Atlantic Station with the rest of West Midtown, especially if some of the development directly fronts Northside Dr (can't believe how close Atlantic Station is to White Provision, wow). Also, that would bookend Atlantic Station with retail on both sides. That would go a long way towards balancing everything out.

Quote:
It's the AS residents themselves, Midtown and West Midtown residents, and students at SCAD, John Marshall, Tech, Emory Medical, and GSU. Shuttles should serve the people they are trying to attract, not the people they are trying not to attract.
If you stopped shuttle connection to the Marta station, however else are those students and others supposed to get to Atlantic Station and the Westside (not every student has a car, especially freshmen)? The thing is that you end up cutting off some of the same people that you are trying to attract in trying to make Atlantic Station inaccessible to the "undesirables." Ultimately, Atlantic Station should be accessible to everyone, regardless of class, etc. Isn't that what living in a real city is supposed to be about?
 
Old 02-25-2011, 01:44 AM
 
12,940 posts, read 21,019,991 times
Reputation: 4088
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA View Post
... Ultimately, Atlantic Station should be accessible to everyone, regardless of class, etc. Isn't that what living in a real city is supposed to be about?

Yes.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:42 AM
 
Location: New York City Area
394 posts, read 550,988 times
Reputation: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA View Post
This would further connect and integrate Atlantic Station with the rest of West Midtown, especially if some of the development directly fronts Northside Dr (can't believe how close Atlantic Station is to White Provision, wow). Also, that would bookend Atlantic Station with retail on both sides. That would go a long way towards balancing everything out.

Can't believe I'm quoting myself...lol. I just looked on google maps at the area mentioned in bold. Unfortunately, development in that area may be a problem due to the power grids and the Engineering Center. I was thinking about the parcels of land on the other side of 14th Street.

Cwkimbro touched on it more appropriately:

Quote:
If I was the developer I would also centralize the neighborhood retail along Mecaslin St and create small neighborhood plaza (Like a little cobble stone semi-circle with the intersection where a few tables, a tree and a planter/seat around the tree and a sidewalk (I'm thinking @ 16th and 17 st.). Nothing big, but a central neighborhood/resident draw. However I would also do this, because I realize some people shopping for a condo or an apartment will not want to live on the side of the building where that street it (it won't be very noisy... but it will be more so). What I would be creating is neighborhood atmosphere, but consumer choice. If someone absolutely doesn't want to live with the possibility of increase noise through their window...most units don't face that way, but for those that like it or don't mind that is available. On street level though... there is a neighborhood center where a neighborhood atmosphere can be created. It would just draw into one corridor.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 06:42 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,112 posts, read 5,135,026 times
Reputation: 898
NYbyWAYofGA,

There are a little over 14 acres of undeveloped land: the two to three parcels by the Atlantic and the land that the Circque du Soleil sits on. A tall hotel was proposed for one of the 17th St parcels (rendering not on hand, and this may be no longer) and residential has been thrown around as the next batch of development. In the meantime, until all of this is built, the commercial space is separated from the residential component almost completely.

Also, I realize many students don't have cars, which is why the shuttle should go to where the students are. The students are not frequenting Art Center Station at night time, I can tell you that! I do see students using the station to get to school SCAD during the day (that's a small chunk of the student population), but Tech, GSU, and Emory Medical students are the 95% bulk of students in the area (there are ~62,000 students) and none of them use Art Center. They live on campus or in Midtown or around downtown. I haven't seen one user of Art Center Station after 8 that I would want in Atlantic Station as a guest; it's the sad truth. Maybe the shuttle can swing by during the day, but night time is out of the question a bad idea.

cwkimbro,

I agree with your points. There are many positives about Atlantic Station or NAP/CBREI would not have invested in it. Ikea, Target, and Dillards are shadow anchors. They own their own parcels. Well, I know Dillards is a shadow anchor but it may be a ground lease, I don't know.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 08:45 AM
 
6 posts, read 6,500 times
Reputation: 24
I have lived in Atlantic Station for almost 3 years. If it weren't for the shuttle, my wife and I - who fit the current target demographic by being in our 30's and having professional salaries - would not have moved here. It's made life so much better having the shuttle. If it goes away without a replacement better than the current MARTA bus route, we would quickly move away. I work downtown and attend GSU for graduate school at night. Yet my wife and I can live at least a moderately more environmentally friendly life by only having one car.

I completely understand the desire to shut down shuttle service to MARTA. I ride the shuttle at all hours - and sometimes I walk home from the Arts Center just to avoid the annoying kids on the shuttle. But AS is one of the few places in Atlanta where you can get by without a car because of its connection to MARTA. If you want to attract moderately young, affluent people, bowing down to the car culture is not the way to do it. AS has a chance to actually allow people to lead a modern urban life. I would hate to see that ruined by hoping that the northern 'burbs crowd will pack their cars in our garages. Also consider that there are several large office buildings serviced by the shuttle - those office workers are left out of discussions like these, which is a HUGE mistake. They have money to spend too, and as someone who was worked in an office in Atlantic Station, I know a lot of these people do not spend money there because they are not being catered to.

I would much rather see expansion of the shuttle to other areas and an attempt to encourage non-automobile commuting. I live 2 blocks from Publix, but I rarely walk there, because not only are you taking your life into your hands at night due to crime, but you also have to just hope that people driving cars have it cross their minds that pedestrians might be around. More pedestrian friendly walkways (bridges, even, to avoid the traffic) would help.

I would like to see a better connection with the Tech campus and more offerings for their students, because many of them DO have money to spend, but just have no interest in AS. I would also not completely count out GSU - they have well over 30,000 students. A lot of people forget that. They're obviously not in the same target group because of the location of the school, but there are a lot of students there, including a lot of graduate students with professional jobs.

There are a lot of other changes I'd like to see, but I don't think becoming less commuter friendly is a positive move at all. It is VERY difficult to find a place to live in Atlanta where every adult in the household doesn't need a car, and I think AS should play up that it IS one of those places to attract the kind of people it wants living there.

Last edited by JasonH_AS; 02-25-2011 at 09:04 AM..
 
Old 02-25-2011, 08:50 AM
 
28,160 posts, read 24,704,135 times
Reputation: 9549
Excellent feedback, Jason. Thank you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top