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Old 02-25-2011, 01:46 PM
 
1,498 posts, read 2,546,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnatl View Post
The shuttle isn't going anywhere, despite your wishes.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the entire Federal approval process for the 17th Street Bridge involved a public transit aspect. Back when AS was under construction, the metro area was still under the non-attainment ruling by the EPA which basically dictated that we could not expand our highways. The bridge was only approved because transit was proposed to connect with the Arts Center Station - specifically. At that time an LRT line was supposed to happen, but the shuttle ended up replacing that due to funds not being available for rail.

Take away the shuttle, and the Feds sue.
I'm not buying this for a second. Can you provide any citation for such an outlandish claim?

 
Old 02-25-2011, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 11,777,880 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackCobain View Post
I'm not buying this for a second. Can you provide any citation for such an outlandish claim?
Buy it or don't, I could care less.

It's the truth, and anyone old enough to remember what was going on back then probably also remembers it.

Do your own research, but expect to be proven wrong.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,266,049 times
Reputation: 4205
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnatl View Post
Buy it or don't, I could care less.

It's the truth, and anyone old enough to remember what was going on back then probably also remembers it.

Do your own research, but expect to be proven wrong.
Another issue to add to this... and I'm being careful here because I didn't follow the paperwork with the 17th bridge project.

If we received federal transportation dollars for something we have to support the operations of it... usually for about 2 decades.

I don't think the shuttle is going anywhere, whether someone is afraid of some of the people is may draw in or not. Simply said... it brings in paying customers.

They are trying to attract a urban savvy crowd of people who live in midtown, around lindbergh, etc... Places where you might have a car, but it is simply not convenient to use all the time if you do live in that setting.

Another thing to point out to BringBack.... If people want this to be an auto-only destination... with no transit options... (and the people it may bring) There are plenty of malls around town to choose from, but this is the one retail center that has 5000 residences living right there and is right next to midtown. If transit should go anywhere, even if just by a shuttle... shouldn't it be there of all places?

But anyways... that argument aside...

John- Serious question... I'm not trying to to undercut the argument.... Is the transit on the bridge tied to the shuttle outright? Can the bus routes passing through the area suffice for federal requirements?
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:19 PM
 
110 posts, read 202,403 times
Reputation: 121
Very interesting comments about what AS is and should be. I work in one of the office buildings in AS and although some of the ideas and plans make sense to me, some do not. I have read some, but not all of the comments, so my thoughts might be redundant, new or completely contrarian. One of my main concerns is that in an attempt to "eradicate" a certain element and bring certain demographics to, AS will remain stagnant at best and become a complete failiure at worst.

1. AS is too generic. There isn't anything really interesting as far as shops or restaurants go. AS should introduce more "boutique" type stores and more electic/versatile restaurants, but they also shouldn't go too far into left field and become some kind of weird marketplace. By weird marketplace, I mean an area where possible customers may come check out what the stores have to offer, realize that the stores have some cool items but nothing to warrant more than a visit twice a year at best.

A few people mentioned a bookstore, but I can't imagine that would be a good idea. Even if the bookstore was regionally focused, what could it offer that Amazon couldn't. You would have a limited few that might buy books, magazines or newspapers, but all of those are dying mediums. So in essence, a bookstore in AS would be like the many other bookstores in the country: a place for hipsters to hang out, drink coffee, leach wi-fi, and spend very little.

2. The restaurants should be able to cater to a late-night crowd. By this, I don't mean turn into a full-fledge club on weekends, although I don't see the inherent problem with that. However, I do think AS should be a place where people, especially 20-somethings/30 somethings should want to hang out. I know that AS is protrayed as a LIVE. WORK. PLAY. area, but there needs to be more emphasis on the playing, especially with the living and working not doing so well. I think AS would be a lot more attractive if it did more to brand itself as an entertainment area: think Bricktown in OKC, the waterfront in San Antonio, Downtown Silver Spring, MD. AS will likely never take off as a prime residential area, due to the location and lack of connectedness, the desire by some who may not even frequent AS for AS to cut off the Marta shuttle, and the still overwhelming glut of condos and a depressed market. However, AS does have the ability to market itself as an area where a diverse group of people may want to hang out and shop during the day, dine (with better restaurant selections), watch sporting events (in a more "intimate/fun" location than Fox Sports), and party at night (I see no reason why a nice bar, or decent/diverse club options shouldn't be included here). A more fun, exciting area, will lend itself to the types who actually live in condos (younger professionals, well-off college students, people more likely to be transients).

3. Getting rid of a certain element is the same paranoia repeating itself that occurred in Buckhead. Many blame the loitering black teenagers for the ills of AS. Well, it's Atlanta. AS is in danger of cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Cutting off the shuttle may (but likely won't) keep some of the teenagers out, but it will also keep out possible residents who don't want to use cars, tourists who don't have cars, and potential customers who don't want to deal with driving down for shopping or events (which AS doesn't have enough of). shutting down the movie theater eliminates one of the only real perks that AS offers over any other area in-town, and probably one of the real profit producing tenants. Plus what would you replace it with?

The undesired element in AS is generally only present in the later nights on weekends. What other businesses would really market to the "desired" demographic at those times? The alternative to keeping out the "undesirables" is for AS to become a ghost town at 8:00pm and again, that does not seem like the goal.

You can't have a place that is touted as live/work/play and the "excitement" is limited to bookstores, arts & crafts vendors, soccer moms, and the Polo shirt and flip-flop wearing crowd. Trying to make AS more like suburbia will be a recipe for disaster.

AS will only be successful as an urban center (and my urban I mean "city" not code word for "young, black and hip-hop") if the diversity that it can bring is embraced and everyone learns how to get along. Sadly, as I typed this, I'm not sure Atlanta is really progressive enough for this to be accomplished.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:23 PM
 
734 posts, read 1,775,486 times
Reputation: 600
BBC, Johnatl is right, Project XL from the EPA, required amount other things linkage to Mass Transit.

Atlantic Station® :: 2006 PROJECT XL REPORT (http://www.atlanticstation.com/concept_green_projectXL06.php - broken link)

"The site will have a linkage to mass transit.
Since April of 2004 Atlantic Station has run (at no cost to the rider) a two vehicle free transit connection between the MARTA Arts Center Station and the community. In October of 2005 Atlantic Station has increased the number of vehicles to seven. Presently over 45,000 riders each month are using the system. In addition, in December 2005 MARTA has begun to run the number 10 bus once an hour through Atlantic Station."
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 11,777,880 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
John- Serious question... I'm not trying to to undercut the argument.... Is the transit on the bridge tied to the shuttle outright? Can the bus routes passing through the area suffice for federal requirements?
I do believe that it is tied to the shuttle outright (being that it replaced the original rail line proposed).

I remember people being very nervous about the EPA giving their blessing for the bridge, and the transit aspect cleared the way. The brownfield designation also helped. Again, back then it was proposed as a LRT connection.

Many people floated the idea of a Calatrava designed "Signature Gateway" type of bridge, and many were very disapointed with the final design GDOT came up with....

I also remember Ansley Park residents threatened to sue to stop the bridge if the approaches on the Midtown side gave clear access to their streets. The turn lanes at Peachtree (where you can't go forward into Ansley) are the end result of this.......
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:31 PM
 
110 posts, read 202,403 times
Reputation: 121
One other point: crime at AS.

I understand that a few YEARS ago, someone at AS was shot. Horrible, but nothing like that has happened since and I think it's safe to say that it's an anamoly. But is AS really unsafe or do people just FEEL unsafe.

I agree that residents, visitors, store owners should FEEL safe at AS and I agree with an increased security presence. But, are there any stats that actually suggest that AS is even remotely unsafe or is it a perception brought about by a couple of occurrences from years ago and a stereotyping of a certain demographic?

I have never felt unsafe in AS during the day, late evening or late night. I just can't imagine that many people are being robbed or assaulted in a congested, well-lit place like AS. Are there a few car break-ins...surely. There is also the extreme of a middle-age, white businessman being told by security that he isn't allowed to take phone calls in his parked car in the garage at 1:15pm on a Wednesday. So there is no way that I believe AS is as unsafe as some make it out to be.

Why bring this up? Well, if people are still judging AS as a crime-ridden haven for hooligans and thugs when in actuality it's a relatively safe area (likely safer than many other areas of the city) regardless of what the owners do, it will never be a success. It will fail because of the misplaced paranoria of people frightened not by facts but by stereotypes.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:39 PM
 
1,498 posts, read 2,546,987 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA View Post
Onemanarmy, exactly. The free shuttle service from Arts Center station is basically like a Marta rail to bus transfer that you would get if you used your Breeze card to ride to the station in the first place. So, even if the free shuttle service were to start charging, the riders from Arts Center station would probably still get a free transfer to the shuttle (otherwise, they will just use the free transfer and take the bus over).
I have already addressed this. Is there a MARTA bus that goes directly from the station to AS, with no in-between stops or delays or detours? MARTA buses are a complete hassle and usually go in round-about routes in order to serve as many as possible. There is no way that they can compete with the convenience of a free shuttle. I'd be willing to bet that most of those teens wouldn't want to deal with the hassle and would just settle for Underground.

And as I said, it's not about eliminating 100% of those people. Some will find a way. The goal is to cut back their presence as much as possible. The nightclubs are one cause for the problems at AS, but claiming the shuttle is not one as well is foolish.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:41 PM
 
6 posts, read 6,498 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLHRLGUY View Post
Yes I agree that shuttle service should continue, it makes no sense to discontinue it for the many reasons Jason said but maybe adding off duty police officers on each shuttle might help. Don't know if there's any type of security already in place? Jason? If not I think that might help. From all indications security is priority number one for the owners so why not start with improving existing services already offered.
I have used the shuttle a lot over the past 2.5 years, and I have only once or twice felt like there could be a legitimate problem about to happen on the shuttle. However, some people (that perhaps don't ride it now) might feel safer with some kind of security presence, even if it were just a constant video feed. I have never felt unsafe, but I'm a larger guy - I could understand some people feeling a little uncomfortable. For me, it's more that the teenagers can be an annoyance.

I would LOVE some way to track the actual location of the shuttles (their FB page mentioned something like nextbus.com). I think that would help with ridership, because some people currently don't ride it because they think it's not reliable. Only a handful of times while I have lived here has the shuttle not made it to my stop in 15 minutes or less, and it is usually much less than that.
 
Old 02-25-2011, 02:44 PM
 
1,498 posts, read 2,546,987 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLHRLGUY View Post
BBC, Johnatl is right, Project XL from the EPA, required amount other things linkage to Mass Transit.

Atlantic Station® :: 2006 PROJECT XL REPORT (http://www.atlanticstation.com/concept_green_projectXL06.php - broken link)

"The site will have a linkage to mass transit.
Since April of 2004 Atlantic Station has run (at no cost to the rider) a two vehicle free transit connection between the MARTA Arts Center Station and the community. In October of 2005 Atlantic Station has increased the number of vehicles to seven. Presently over 45,000 riders each month are using the system. In addition, in December 2005 MARTA has begun to run the number 10 bus once an hour through Atlantic Station."
Here is the requirement from the EPA:

The site will have a linkage to mass transit.

That's it. Can you tell me why having normal MARTA bus routes wouldn't satisfy this?
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