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Old 04-17-2011, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
2,678 posts, read 1,979,631 times
Reputation: 1558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by back2dc View Post
Keep telling yourself that kid. Seceded on constitutional grounds? If that was the case than what happened at Fort Sumter was just a "misunderstanding".

Whatever allows you to sleep at night. The South and Slavery will always go hand in hand.
I would like to kindly ask you to prove me wrong about secession, and I never denied the South's role in slavery one bit. But when it came to Fort Sumter, Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing, he was trying to angle the South into firing first, and it worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Celebrating Southern culture makes a lot of sense to me, too, and I do it at every opportunity. The culture of the South is a rich, amazingly complicated and often wonderful tapestry. However, I don't see how that requires hoisting the Confederate flag at state facilities.

While the Civil War was far more complex than a battle about slavery, there's no denying that they are closely linked. In today's world raising the Confederate flag at a state facility (owned by all Georgians) just isn't appropriate. For many of us it symbolizes the era of segregation and racism. Flying the flag at a state facility implies that Georgia is looking backward rather than forward.
I completely agree with you, up to the flag part anyway, now the current flag of the state of Georgia is the state seal implanted onto the blue field of the Confederate First National flag, the Georgia state flag currently is a less recognized Confederate flag nothing wrong with that (it requires historical savvy ), I have always felt that the flag's meaning in itself is in the eye of the beholder and it would be best to ask questions about it.

However, if a Confederate Naval Jack/Battle Flag/AoT flag is placed at Stone Mountain (a monument to Robert E. Lee, Jeff Davis and Stonewall Jackson), or Kennesaw Mountain, Chickamauga, or a monument commemorating the fall of Atlanta I feel it would be appropriate (given the historical context).
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
657 posts, read 898,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
I would like to kindly ask you to prove me wrong about secession, and I never denied the South's role in slavery one bit. But when it came to Fort Sumter, Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing, he was trying to angle the South into firing first, and it worked.
Oh, ok, so it's all Lincoln's fault, a conspiracy. That justifies the eventual slaughter of 300,000 Union soldiers. That and some hot-headed bubbas at Fort Sumter who didn't know any better.

Own up to these traitors' actions. The Southern states' justification for secession is inherently evil. Southerners denied that blacks were anything more than 3/5 of a person and went to war against America to fight for that belief.
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:59 PM
 
14,876 posts, read 9,612,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
However, if a Confederate Naval Jack/Battle Flag/AoT flag is placed at Stone Mountain (a monument to Robert E. Lee, Jeff Davis and Stonewall Jackson), or Kennesaw Mountain, Chickamauga, or a monument commemorating the fall of Atlanta I feel it would be appropriate (given the historical context).
Let's say you're an African American whose folks were slaves prior to the Civil War, and that while you appreciate there was more to the war than slavery alone, you also know that keeping the right to legally own black slaves was one the primary goals of the Confederacy. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're an African American who was denied admission to public schools, universities, hospitals, parks during the 1950s and 60s and that you know the Confederate Stars & Bars was added to the state flag at that time to symbolize the state of Georgia's official opposition to equal civil rights to people like you. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars mean to you?

Or, say you're a white person who opposed the use of state government to make sure many of your fellow citizens didn't have the same rights you did. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're a parent trying to raise a child to believe that in the United States all people should be treated equally under the law, but you know that the Confederate flag has often been used as a symbol of opposition to equal treatment. What will you tell your child that the Confederate flag flying over a state owned facility means?
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
2,678 posts, read 1,979,631 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by back2dc View Post
Oh, ok, so it's all Lincoln's fault, a conspiracy. That justifies the eventual slaughter of 300,000 Union soldiers. That and some hot-headed bubbas at Fort Sumter who didn't know any better.

Own up to these traitors' actions. The Southern states' justification for secession is inherently evil. Southerners denied that blacks were anything more than 3/5 of a person and went to war against America to fight for that belief.
I didn't say it was all Lincoln's fault, before the war Lincoln was a lawyer, he knew a thing or two about playing legalities and polititics, and legalities in politics. I never stated it was a conspiracy, you did. And the 300,000 dead Union soldiers speaks as much for the 300,000 dead Confederate soldiers, war and disease just happens to do that in 1860's America. And it wasn't some "Hot Headed Bubba's" at Ft. Sumter either, the man in charge of the shelling of the Fort was General Pierre Gustav Toutant Beauregard, and he stressed over the idea of firing on the fort for several weeks before finally attempting to shake the yanks from the harbor.

But since it wasn't treason, I have nothing to own up to, while only 4 of the 11 (arguable 13) Confederate states had their reasons for seceding explicitly in slavery (South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas), Georgia added that tariffs also caused the rift, and Texas also argued Washington didn't live up to it's end of the Annexation Treaty.

When you say "went to war against America" do you really mean "the North killing the Republic that the original intent of was not to be bound by force, but to be govern by the consent of the governed, even if that meant seceding"?

"If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion...His (Jeff Davis') capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason." - Judge Salmon P. Chase

"After studying more than 270,000 Confederate documents, seeking evidence against Davis, the court discouraged the War Department: 'Davis will be found not guilty,' Lieber reported 'and we shall stand there completely beaten'." - Judge Fraz Leiber

^^ And this was the SCOTUS powers-that-be AFTER the Civil War.
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
2,678 posts, read 1,979,631 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Let's say you're an African American whose folks were slaves prior to the Civil War, and that while you appreciate there was more to the war than slavery alone, you also know that keeping the right to legally own black slaves was one the primary goals of the Confederacy. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're an African American who was denied admission to public schools, universities, hospitals, parks during the 1950s and 60s and that you know the Confederate Stars & Bars was added to the state flag at that time to symbolize the state of Georgia's official opposition to equal civil rights to people like you. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars mean to you?

Or, say you're a white person who opposed the use of state government to make sure many of your fellow citizens didn't have the same rights you did. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're a parent trying to raise a child to believe that in the United States all people should be treated equally under the law, but you know that the Confederate flag has often been used as a symbol of opposition to equal treatment. What will you tell your child that the Confederate flag flying over a state owned facility means?
Thank you for the response, this goes back to what I said about the meaning being in the eye-of-the-beholder, the flag itself may or may not be used for those explicit reasons, that is why I stress asking questions about it. Now to be honest, I never experienced any of that. But, the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval Jack being flown over a public building would be a bit of an issue, but if they did it would require a good explaination, but since Jim Crow has long ended there have been generations that never got to experience any of that (by which I mean de jure segregation).

But my point that you had quoted, was the flag being used in a historical context, being Stone Mountain and such were a monument to fallen soldiers/leaders that were Southerners and became heroes to many, if they flew over those monuments, and not over say...courthouses then I don't think there should be a problem.
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Old 04-17-2011, 08:40 PM
 
14,876 posts, read 9,612,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
Thank you for the response, this goes back to what I said about the meaning being in the eye-of-the-beholder, the flag itself may or may not be used for those explicit reasons, that is why I stress asking questions about it. Now to be honest, I never experienced any of that. But, the Confederate Battle Flag/Naval Jack being flown over a public building would be a bit of an issue, but if they did it would require a good explaination, but since Jim Crow has long ended there have been generations that never got to experience any of that (by which I mean de jure segregation).
Let's say the meaning and symbolism of the Confederate flag is in the eye of beholder. Why should our state government get involved in endorsing and spending tax dollars for something that I and many of my fellow tax-paying citizens find offensive? Nobody is saying Civil War buffs, die-hard supporters of the Confederacy or those like to commemorate our state's vehement opposition to equal rights can't fly the flag to their heart's content. Just don't be spending MY tax dollars doing it on property that belongs to all of us.

Quote:
But my point that you had quoted, was the flag being used in a historical context, being Stone Mountain and such were a monument to fallen soldiers/leaders that were Southerners and became heroes to many, if they flew over those monuments, and not over say...courthouses then I don't think there should be a problem.
I'm strongly in favor of people recognizing and understanding their history. That includes the good, bad and the ugly.

But the Confederate flag is an especially volatile and emotional symbol that has repeatedly been used to symbolize opposition to equal rights for blacks. It's still commonly used by extremist groups like the Klan, Aryan Nation and the Skinheads.. Why should the government of the State of Georgia get on board with this sort of thing and spend our tax dollars on something that's clearly offensive to many Georgians?
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Old 04-17-2011, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
2,678 posts, read 1,979,631 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Let's say the meaning and symbolism of the Confederate flag is in the eye of beholder. Why should our state government get involved in endorsing and spending tax dollars for something that I and many of my fellow tax-paying citizens find offensive? Nobody is saying Civil War buffs, die-hard supporters of the Confederacy or those like to commemorate our state's vehement opposition to equal rights can't fly the flag to their heart's content. Just don't be spending MY tax dollars doing it on property that belongs to all of us.

I'm strongly in favor of people recognizing and understanding their history. That includes the good, bad and the ugly.

But the Confederate flag is an especially volatile and emotional symbol that has repeatedly been used to symbolize opposition to equal rights for blacks. It's still commonly used by extremist groups like the Klan, Aryan Nation and the Skinheads.. Why should the government of the State of Georgia get on board with this sort of thing and spend our tax dollars on something that's clearly offensive to many Georgians?
I don't know what to tell you then. I guess that between us there is a Values Dissonance, I will just lay my point down that saying, that if the state of Georgia is using any of the dozens of Confederate flags at a monument to Confederate leaders or soldiers as part of Georgia's history, then I don't see the problem, it's just saying (in my point of view) "Hey, there was a giant battle in this area, and a lot of Southerners got maimed and killed in it, we are doing this for them."

But, I tell you what, as part of my parting I will say that not only the Confederate flag is used by said extremists, the United States flag and the Christian Cross is extensivly used as well, they would also be considered inflammatory to others.

And what the SCV (Civil War heritage and re-enactment society) has to say about said extremists:

http://www.scv.org/pdf/2010BattleFlagResolution.pdf
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:14 PM
 
14,876 posts, read 9,612,450 times
Reputation: 3543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
I don't know what to tell you then. I guess that between us there is a Values Dissonance, I will just lay my point down that saying, that if the state of Georgia is using any of the dozens of Confederate flags at a monument to Confederate leaders or soldiers as part of Georgia's history, then I don't see the problem, it's just saying (in my point of view) "Hey, there was a giant battle in this area, and a lot of Southerners got maimed and killed in it, we are doing this for them."

But, I tell you what, as part of my parting I will say that not only the Confederate flag is used by said extremists, the United States flag and the Christian Cross is extensivly used as well, they would also be considered inflammatory to others.
We're not having any values dissonance at all. With all due respect, you're simply misunderstanding the facts. In today's world the Confederate flag has clearly come to symbolize opposition to equal civil rights for blacks. It remains such a powerful symbol that it's still used by white supremacist groups like Aryan Nation, the KKK and the Skinheads. That's why state government has no business spending taxpayer dollars flying this flag at state owned facilities.

Now, it's really a shame the flag has been so badly used that is has become a symbol for hate groups and opposition to the civil rights struggle. Any student of Southern history know that what actually transpired during the Civil War is far more murky and complex.

While slavery was obviously the "but for" cause of the Civil War, that doesn't mean that men and women did not also fight for reasons of personal and regional pride, individual honor, religion, family and culture. There was courage on both sides. Enormous suffering and loss was endured. The conflict shaped America in ways that resonate to this day.

So I think it is extremely important to understand the lessons of the war. And it is fitting to honor the lives that were lost or shattered. Some of my direct ancestors were Confederate soldiers. While no thinking person can ever justify a war whose end was to guarantee the right to own slaves, I don't beleive that's what the Civil War was about to most of the combatants. They wanted to survive, to see their fellow soldiers come home and to rejoin their families and live a life of reasonable prosperity and safety.

All of this should be known. Where things were wrong that should be made plain. Where there was honor and courage that should likewise be acknowledged. Memorials are fine and they serve several important purposes.

But a state government flying the Confederate flag over a state owned facility is an entirely different matter. The flag has been used as a symbol of hate and opposition to the basic constitutional freedoms every American should have. Waving the flag sends that message clearly, whether it is intended or not. If you want to blame somebody for that, blame the people and the politicians who used it that way throughout the 1950s and 60s, and the hate groups who use it that way now.

And I'm afraid saying, "Oh, it's just a memorial to Southern culture" doesn't get it. That's akin to me sticking my middle finger in somebody's face and saying, "Oh, don't get upset, it's just a finger." The symbolism has gone too far. Like it or not -- and intended or not -- the Confederate flag has come to stand for some very negative things. For blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics and all Americans.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
2,006 posts, read 1,379,000 times
Reputation: 2467
Default Not much

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Let's say you're an African American whose folks were slaves prior to the Civil War, and that while you appreciate there was more to the war than slavery alone, you also know that keeping the right to legally own black slaves was one the primary goals of the Confederacy. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're an African American who was denied admission to public schools, universities, hospitals, parks during the 1950s and 60s and that you know the Confederate Stars & Bars was added to the state flag at that time to symbolize the state of Georgia's official opposition to equal civil rights to people like you. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars mean to you?

Or, say you're a white person who opposed the use of state government to make sure many of your fellow citizens didn't have the same rights you did. What does the Confederate flag flying over a facility paid for with your tax dollars symbolize to you?

Or, say you're a parent trying to raise a child to believe that in the United States all people should be treated equally under the law, but you know that the Confederate flag has often been used as a symbol of opposition to equal treatment. What will you tell your child that the Confederate flag flying over a state owned facility means?

Points well made but, they are not unique. The same could be said of those that want to waste tax dollars on renaming streets downtown after a bunch of dead guys. In this economic crisis, what does that say to you?

Or say, you are part of the quiet majority and you see College Professors running down the military and being lauded for the efforts all the while gleaning every federal and state tax dollar they can to keep their esteemed institutions running? As a tax payer of said states and fed in general, what does that say to you?

Or say, you are part of the silent majority and you hold certain traditions (x-mas, prayer in school) dear and desired and at every turn, every institution where YOU pay tax dollars tells you that you can no longer have symbols that remind them of these questionable traditions....what does that say to you?

The list is endless. There is an old Italian Proverb out there that roughly translates to: "To every King a slave, to every slave a King" or some other such nonsense....but, the meaning is there. EVERYONE's lineage has been a slave, a king, and all stations in between. And here's a tip, NO one is special. It's all in their minds. Go back in history far enough and everyone should be able to lodge a gripe or two. Should we start knocking down flags with Lions because the insensitivity that might be towards Christians who were thrown to them for sport/entertainment some 2,000 years ago????

I don't think those who created this flag would be making this much baloney over it if THEY were alive today. Get over it. It's just not that big a deal. Yeah, does it hurt some? Absolutely. Is it part of Georgia's history? Absolutely.....move on.....
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:15 PM
 
14,876 posts, read 9,612,450 times
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Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
Points well made but, they are not unique. The same could be said of those that want to waste tax dollars on renaming streets downtown after a bunch of dead guys. In this economic crisis, what does that say to you?
Well, no doubt there's a mountain of absurd government spending. And you're correct that some of it is always going to step on someone's toes. The frequent renaming of streets is especially annoying to me.

But I don't think any of this rises to the unique level of the Confederate flag. It's one of the most powerful and readily recognizable symbols in the country. You'd have to have been living under a rock for the past half century not to realize its close association with state opposition to the civil rights movement and with white supremacist organizations.
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