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Old 05-16-2011, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Dunwoody)
2,047 posts, read 4,602,493 times
Reputation: 980

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Quote:
That's all fine and all, but do you realize how hard it is to actually migrate to this country legally?
I don't have a dog in this fight except for the constitutionality issue I raised earlier. However I've recently been researching immigration issues for a personal matter and all I can say is DEAR GOD. I'm astonished that anyone EVER immigrates here legally. I was in the Army for six years. I've worked for various government agencies on both a state and federal level. As a social worker I had to explain government-ese to laypeople all the time. One of my two Master's degrees is in Criminal Justice. In addition, I'm a professional writer and quite adept in the English language. I also have some paralegal training. I said all this to say I'm not unfamiliar with government lingo. Even so it took me a solid month to research ONE ISSUE and write it up in a way that was accessible to regular people. The system is a worse mess than anything I've ever seen and I used to work in child welfare! Instead of passing unenforceable draconian laws, we need some really smart people working on this. Some people who understand policy and know how to draft laws that are both fair and enforceable. Not a bunch of kneejerk crap that will only cost the state more money as we try to defend the indefensible. We need economists and other social scientists. NOT politicians who are only in this for votes.

 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
6,476 posts, read 7,296,140 times
Reputation: 7026
Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish View Post
I don't see where his being an entertainer (popular or otherwise) has anything to do with his being able to say what he thinks, whether he came out in favor of the law, or against it...

It's like, everybody's running around talking about 'freedom of speech' and all, but apparently, being an entertainer disqualifies you from having an opinion?
Sorry, but that ain't the way it works...everybody's also bellowing 'this is America' all the time, but according to you and some others here, he needs to 'shut the hell up and sing or dance', and NOT have a right to his opinion---strictly based on his being an entertainer?

To me, anyway, that's one of the most important things about being an American---the ability to have, and express, an opinion if you so choose, and not be silenced, no matter WHAT side of an issue you line up on...and to that end, no, he doesn't have to leave his 'politics at the saloon or the keyboard', just as you and I both have the right to gather here and express OUR opinions...simple as that
You conflate the right of free speech and of opinion with appropriateness of occasion. I have the right to protest a soldiers funeral and say dreadful things about her/him, but my right doesn't make what I do the right thing. The man was there to be recognized as a musician. He should have said 'thank you' and had a seat.

Celebrities are too often treated with far more deference and respect than they are worth. Treated thusly long enough, they begin to believe their own hype and dare think themselves better than you or me. Naturally, this far from universally true but commonplace all the same.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:39 PM
 
3,695 posts, read 5,941,190 times
Reputation: 2965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli View Post
You conflate the right of free speech and of opinion with appropriateness of occasion. I have the right to protest a soldiers funeral and say dreadful things about her/him, but my right doesn't make what I do the right thing. The man was there to be recognized as a musician. He should have said 'thank you' and had a seat.

Celebrities are too often treated with far more deference and respect than they are worth. Treated thusly long enough, they begin to believe their own hype and dare think themselves better than you or me. Naturally, this far from universally true but commonplace all the same.
Was he? I thought he was there to be recognized for being a Beacon of Change, not for his music?

I mean, it's not like Hoobastank was up there or something.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
45 posts, read 76,545 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
I'm 100% Hispanic, and 100% in DISAGREEMENT with Santana! For us Hispanics who were born here, or came here LEGALLY, we recognize the fact that illegal immigration is something that negatively affects everyone's quality of life. . .mine included! I'm tired and exhausted of seeing my hard earned tax dollars go to feed, heal, encarcerate, and house illegal immigrants.

I'm also tired of hearing the same old rehashed rhetoric of "oh, but who will pick your lettuce, collect your garbage, and wait on your restaurant table?" Seriously, is that all illegal immigrants have to offer? Is that your justification for braking the laws of this country? Is that the reason why I should have to put up with people who refuse to become part of mainstream USA? Really? Am I suppose to feel sorry for you?

If you take it upon yourself to brake the law, then be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions.
Good post chacho_keva!

My grandfather immigrated from the Netherlands back in the 1920's and had to endure the same type of rhetoric from those who were already US citizens - but he did it legally, filled out the forms, stood in line, and eventually became a US citizen.

I also have a close friend from Germany that was working in the US on a work visa. He applied for citizenship - it took about 7 years - but he did it legally, filled out the forms, now he is a US citizen.

In comparison with other countries, the United States has a very welcoming immigration policy. It is not difficult to acquire a US work visa or become a US citizen - it is much easier than most countries. As a comparison, look up how difficult it is for a US citizen to immigrate to Australia or New Zealand.

What I do have a problem with are those people who think they have a right to "cut in line" - in front of those applicants who went through the appropriate legal process. To illegal immigrants (regardless of their origin) - I say go to the back of the line. I would support a one-way Delta ticket to deport them back to their country of origin.

Why should our tax dollars go to pay for anything associated with citizens of other countries. Those countries need to pay for their own citizens - not US!
 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:44 PM
JPD
 
12,138 posts, read 18,217,240 times
Reputation: 8003
Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50 View Post
Was he? I thought he was there to be recognized for being a Beacon of Change, not for his music?

I mean, it's not like Hoobastank was up there or something.
Right. That piece of information was in the >>>FIRST SENTENCE<<< of the article which this thread is based on, yet some people still aren't able to grasp it.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
6,476 posts, read 7,296,140 times
Reputation: 7026
Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50 View Post
Was he? I thought he was there to be recognized for being a Beacon of Change, not for his music?

I mean, it's not like Hoobastank was up there or something.
Maybe I misunderstood the event. "Beacon of Change"...change in what field? Politics? Music?? See what I mean?
 
Old 05-16-2011, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Ono Island, Orange Beach, AL
10,733 posts, read 13,275,291 times
Reputation: 7158
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight except for the constitutionality issue I raised earlier. However I've recently been researching immigration issues for a personal matter and all I can say is DEAR GOD. I'm astonished that anyone EVER immigrates here legally. I was in the Army for six years. I've worked for various government agencies on both a state and federal level. As a social worker I had to explain government-ese to laypeople all the time. One of my two Master's degrees is in Criminal Justice. In addition, I'm a professional writer and quite adept in the English language. I also have some paralegal training. I said all this to say I'm not unfamiliar with government lingo. Even so it took me a solid month to research ONE ISSUE and write it up in a way that was accessible to regular people. The system is a worse mess than anything I've ever seen and I used to work in child welfare! Instead of passing unenforceable draconian laws, we need some really smart people working on this. Some people who understand policy and know how to draft laws that are both fair and enforceable. Not a bunch of kneejerk crap that will only cost the state more money as we try to defend the indefensible. We need economists and other social scientists. NOT politicians who are only in this for votes.
Well written! Thank you.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 03:07 PM
 
3,128 posts, read 6,500,140 times
Reputation: 1599
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Yeah, one of the big things about the Georgia bill is that it puts a lot of the onus on the you-know-whatus of Georgia residents. I have the feeling a lot of folks are going to be surprised when they find themselves tangled up in this thing.

You can say, "Wait, that isn't intended to apply to me!" but the arresting officer or the prosecutor will say, "Tell it to the judge."
Yup, so some cop can decide your fate and he is no expert in this matter. Great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincatfish View Post
Funny how, no matter what poiltical belief you subscribe to, or religion you practice, or race or ethnicity you belong to, at the end of the day, this is still ther United States Of America...

And, entertainer or not, Mr Santana is entitled to his opinion, and the right to express said opinion...why do some people labor under the illusion that what THEY say is the Holy Gospel, and everyone else is just supposed to sit down and shut up, because they've got some look on their face, or tone in their voice, we're supposed be shrinking violets and NOT speak up?

And what I just said, again, applies to ALL situations, and ALL people...I may not agree with what you say, but this is America, and I will defend to the last your right to say it...

"Stick to the music Devadip"? Uh-uh...if you have something on your mind, Mr Santana, speak up and speak out, right or wrong...last time I looked, there wasn't a 'National Your Opinion Isn't Important Because You're An Entertainer' law on the books

(I realize I may have just contradicted myself a bit, and if so, I apologize, but I absolutely cannot abide people telling OTHER people that their opinion is bogus because they're a _______ [insert appropriate race, political party, sexual orientation, religion, fan of whatever sports team, resident or non-resident of, etc, here])
Amen!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zel Ya View Post
Suprascooby22, president of the Carlos SANTANA fan club, embarrasses himself.

SANTANTA? Really!
Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by muxBuppie View Post
This is the most rational and useful post in this thread. Bullbear and suprascooby can't even refute it.
It was an outstanding post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Do you want to know how I know this country's democracy is going to hell in a hand basket? People never take the time to understand the laws that are passed before they get too bent out of shape on them. This is what HB 87 (the new Immigration law)actually says:

HB*87*2011-2012 Regular Session



So if you are like most people and have trouble form of English used in government, I'll help you out with what this new "law" does and does not do.

What this law clearly is not

No where in the above summary does it state this law will only affect those who commit crimes. Rather, it remains extremely ambiguous for how it could be applied and I'll speak on what that could mean below.

I'd like to first state though that I believe immigrants to this country should have a higher standard than citizens when it comes to adhering to the law. When someone migrates to this country they should do so with the goal of bettering their/family lives due to the opportunities we have here and to contribute to society at large by abiding by the law and working as hard as their ability allows them. To do any different would literally be akin to pooping on the millions of people who immigrated to this country over the centuries and helped make America what it is and they should lose their America privileges.

What this law clearly is

So here are the things this law does do:

-Requires employers to verify the legal status of all of their employees (not a bad thing)
-Provides funding for training and the legal enforcement of Federal immigration law in State courts
-Provide funding to County jails to hold those suspected or proven of not being legal residents of the United States separately from the general inmate population
-Require all immigrants to carry identification proving their legal status on their person at all times
-Allow law enforcement to investigate the legal status of any one whether a law has been broken or not

That last point is the one that makes this law unworthy of remaining in place and why it is so controversial. The reason why this law was written so ambiguously was to avoid making the law illegal (by contradicting the Civil Rights Act and the Equal Protection clause of the ) by specifically calling what would constitute someone being suspected of not being a legal resident.

How exactly would one determine that? Is it by the way they dress? Their accent? The type of job they work? Where they live? Would a white Canadian born in Toronto who sounds and looks like an average Midwesterner but is here illegally be more or less likely to be picked up by a police officer for an immigration violation than a Mexican who is here illegally but lives in a crappy part of town and supports his family via day labor jobs? Would a Russian immigrant from a poor family and a thick accent who came here legally and works hard everyday to provide for his family be more or less likely to be picked up by a police officer for an immigration violation than a Nigerian with a great education who studied in American schools all his life (thus having a more American accent), immigrated here legally, and got a job but overstayed his visa and is now illegal?

As you can see, without creating one standard to suspect any resident of being illegal, it would have to be left up to the judgement and the prejudices of the law enforcement officer to determine that. Under that system it would be impossible for this not to come down to whatever people consider to be the hallmarks of being an illegal alien and those hallmarks almost always are ones based on ethnic or racial stereotypes. That is against the law and the Federal judiciary has proved time and again that you can not make laws that favor one group of citizens/residents over another group of residents. We are all equal when it comes to the law (well, at least in theory) and thus should all be treated equally.

In order for this law as it is written to be 100% fair is for every one to be subject to it. That would mean, as the "law" currently exists, you could potentially be pulled over or stopped at any time by a law enforcement officer and asked to prove your legal status. Also, as the "law" currently exists, if the documentation you produce is deemed "insufficient" by the law enforcement officer, they have been given the ability by this "law" to arrest you and hold you until your status is confirmed.

I don't know about you, but I would refuse to prove my citizenship to any government man, law enforcement or not.

These provision of the law need to be removed as there is no easy or fair way to implement them. I am fine with leaving the citizenship/residency verification portions in place for employment and inmates.

AMEN!! But these bigots who act like they are educated and their opinion matters more than others don't even READ the basics, let alone ask for an expert opinion if they don't understand to better conclude. Instead its the same childish banter

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
Well written! Thank you.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,468 posts, read 14,910,133 times
Reputation: 7263
Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
I've heard and read how difficult it is to obtain legal entry into this country. It may be easier said than done but, just because something is difficult does not mean it's impossible.
It's certainly not impossible, but it is close to it. In most situations it can take 5 to 10 years (or longer) for someone to obtain just legal residency in this country. I won't get into how long it takes to become a citizen after that as it is neither easy or cheap.

This is the one fact of the "immigration debate" that both sides have done very little to bring light and instead are relying on people's emotional reactions to the situation rather than an intelligent solution to an actual problem.

For record I do not agree with those who believe that the only solution is to criminalize illegal immigration even more so than it is currently and force deportation nor do I agree with those who wish to stick with the status quo.

We need to completely redo our methods of immigrating to this country from top to bottom. It's not just a problem for the people on the bottom rung of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoslynHolcomb View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight except for the constitutionality issue I raised earlier. However I've recently been researching immigration issues for a personal matter and all I can say is DEAR GOD. I'm astonished that anyone EVER immigrates here legally. I was in the Army for six years. I've worked for various government agencies on both a state and federal level. As a social worker I had to explain government-ese to laypeople all the time. One of my two Master's degrees is in Criminal Justice. In addition, I'm a professional writer and quite adept in the English language. I also have some paralegal training. I said all this to say I'm not unfamiliar with government lingo. Even so it took me a solid month to research ONE ISSUE and write it up in a way that was accessible to regular people. The system is a worse mess than anything I've ever seen and I used to work in child welfare! Instead of passing unenforceable draconian laws, we need some really smart people working on this. Some people who understand policy and know how to draft laws that are both fair and enforceable. Not a bunch of kneejerk crap that will only cost the state more money as we try to defend the indefensible. We need economists and other social scientists. NOT politicians who are only in this for votes.
I really, really, really hope people take the time to read and understand your point Roslyn because it something your average citizen is not even aware of.

A very big case in point is the immigration story of myself and my wife. Mrs. Waronxmas is not a US Citizen and when we first met/started dating she was here on a H1B work visa. After a few years of care free dating we decided that we would get married and settle here in the States rather than going to live in her home country. Our perception of the process was naive to say the least and probably close to the general public perception of how it works. To most people they think it's as simple as filling out a form, getting married, the non-citizen spouse becomes a citizen, you eat cake, and live happily ever after. In reality it is far harder, time consuming, and expensive than most people realize.

Essentially we had three options:

-Have her apply to remove her H1B and apply for permanent residency status
-Apply for permanent residency without a change in status
-Apply for a marriage visa

Option 1 was out because it meant she would have to quit her job and move back home and wait an indeterminate amount of time for a yes or no on the acceptance of her application (not an approval) based on priority and need. From what we learned from friends however made this a non-option because apparently people who currently have an H1B very rarely get their application for change of status approved due to political reasons. If they do, the whole thing takes 10 years during which time your status is in limbo.

Option 2 was out because of the time frame issue and that she probably would not be able to work while USCIS probably accepted her application.

That left us with option 3a and 3b. Oh, did you think it would be easy as just one option 3. Nope!

So for marriage there is an entirely separate type of visa called the K visa which also has three sub visa types.

K-1 visa - Offered to US citizens wanting to bring a fiance to the United States for marriage

K-2 visa - Offered to the children of a foreign spouse to immigrate to the United States

K-3 visa - Offered to US citizens wishing to bring their spouse to the United States to live.

Now a person, looking at the above options, might think the K-3 would be the best option for two young 20 somethings wishing to get married. WRONG. The K-3 visa is essentially a petition to immigrate to the United States but using marriage as the reason to immigrate. It can take USCIS up to three years to approve the petition, at which time it is likely the two spouses will be separated.

The only real efficient option for anyone wishing to marry a foreign citizen is the K1 process. However, a K1 visa can not be used for individuals already in the United States. On the bright side, the amount of time it takes to get the fiancee to the United States is much, much shorter than the other options.

Since we preferred to spend the first few years of marriage living under the same roof Mrs. Waronxmas quit her job, moved back home (which turned out to be a good thing), I applied for the K1 visa, and then we crossed our fingers to hear an answer.

So what did this process involve? We had to fill out the K1 application, submit about 10 different forms along with our packet ranging from how much I had paid in taxes the last three years to how I would support my future wife once she arrived, evidence that we had actually met in person and spent time together (it's more degrading than it even sounds), and close to $1000 in fees and paperwork just to apply for the visa. Oh, and all documentation had to submitted in triplicate.

After that it goes into a gigantic Federal government black hole where you have no idea what your status is for weeks at a time. Then, after 3 months of waiting, we finally got notice that Mrs. Waronxmas had been approved for an interview at the local US Embassy. Oh, you thought it was over, huh?

This phase of the process involved her having to line up at the gate of the embassy at 6am. After several hours of waiting outside, you are taken into a room with a Embassy worker who will review the packet of information you brought with you (the original application material that was triplicated) and the forms that were submitted in the United States to USCIS (another part of the triplicate) and compared for consistency. During this time, the applicant is berated with questions about the most minute details of the packet. If that goes well, then the applicant (Mrs. Waronxmas) is then has to undergo a physical exam to ensure that she or he is actually a she or he, checked for any form of medial problem (in other words, to keep people from moving here to get "quality health care"), have a body cavity search performed (for what purpose I am not sure), and then (at the time. it is now illegal) made to take an AIDS test which if they failed the petition would immediately be denied. Needless to say, this presented a low point in our courtship as you might imagine.

After this part is completed, you wait another few weeks for an approval to move to the next phase of the process. During this time, the applicant whether they are approved or not eventually, must receive every single immunization for every disease modern science has an immunization for (this process is repeated once the applicant is in the United States. FYI)

Eventually, you will be notified if you qualify or not for the visa. Luckily, we qualified but the games were not over. Mrs Waronxmas then had to attend marriage counseling which consisted of a video about how American men abuse their wives and how to get help if you are abused (not making it up. but that was the home country's video, not the United States). Before the applicant's passport is returned, the local US Embassy has the option of reviewing the paperwork one last time which they did in our case (of course). It was during this time that we realized that there was on document we had left out in the initial submission and that she would have to submit before getting her passport back and able to fly here. So I had to send a single notarized document (in triplicate) with the fastest shipping option I could find. If you aren't aware, shipping anything overseas overnight is super expensive. Especially to the other side of the planet. Luckily it was received on time.

So now, she's got the visa and you are thinking it'll be smooth sailing from here. NOPE, again. I will leave out the part where I flew there (to a location that is very expensive to get to from Atlanta no matter what) and we had a not so legal marriage (more on that in a second) due to the fact that her family lives in a country that does not have the visa waiver program nor a visa to come to the united states. Not that we could actually afford to bring her parents here, or here whole family, for a wedding of course.

There is a catch to the K-1 visa that most people do not realize, you have to get married within 90 days of entering the United States and you only have 6 months from the time the visa is issued to travel to the United States. So we had to scramble to plan the second wedding here (I dare anyone to plan a wedding in 90 days or less. HA!), pay for plane tickets, and figure out how I was going to take all of this time off of work. Oh, and just because you get the visa and get on the plane, it does not guarantee that the applicant will actually be able to enter the united states.

Upon the entering the US, the immigration agent will (again!) go through the visa documentation (the third of the original triplicate) and verify the information again. It is up to them if the person is allowed in or not, but usually that doesn't occur. At this point your 90 days begin and you have to get married before that can happen.

So that means we had to apply for a marriage license, apply for her social security number, get blood tests, receive marriage counseling from a catholic priest (she was catholic at the time, but I worked that out of her), and the zillion other things you do before you get married. Oh, and prepare yet another set of documents that adjust the applicants name and status and various other nonsense.

The process is still not over. After you get married, you have to send validation of legal marriage to USCIS and then apply to have the spouses status changed from "legal non-resident alien" to "legal resident") which involves a similarly large stack of documents and proof of us being married and not having a shame marriage. And then you wait anywhere from 6 months to 2 years while they consider your matter and can do a surprise inspection of your home at any time without notice. You will then receive a notice that you have an interview at USCIS where a worker looks over your gigantic stack of paperwork and then begin to quiz on the year contents. At this point, the officer will make a determination if your marriage is valid or not and luckily in our case we were deemed valid. If you aren't then you have no recourse but to appeal the ruling at which time the applicant can be deported.

This whole process took us 3 years from start to finish and cost us nearly $5000 in fees, document services, legal review, and various other services. That number does not include the money we spent on both marriages, plane tickets, doctor's appointments, and the zillion other things we had to do get married. If you really want to feel how bad it is, the above is the quickest and easiest way to be come a resident of the United States.

So as you can see, even for two law abiding college educated people who did everything the way they were supposed to do, paid every penny, and followed every single detail to the letter of the law, immigrating to this country was beyond just "difficult". During the whole process we often "joked" (we were pretty serious) about how much easier it would have been to take a trip to Canada or Mexico and cross the border illegally. At least we'd get a vacation out of it instead of a massive headache and thousands of dollars gone.

In summary, I say all of the above to say one thing: Our immigration laws have to change. The way they are currently is unsustainable.
 
Old 05-16-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,334 posts, read 25,982,877 times
Reputation: 3990
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
That's all fine and all, but do you realize how hard it is to actually migrate to this country legally?

There are usually only three practical paths:

-Marriage
-Being a refugee
-Via a work visa
Compare it to any other country. The rules in the US are much less restrictive than many if not most others. It is far less strict than similar laws in Mexico or Canada, for example ... ironic given the benefits that Mexico derives from immigration to the US.
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