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Old 08-16-2011, 09:23 PM
bu2
 
8,975 posts, read 5,670,985 times
Reputation: 3540

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[quote=waronxmas;20486714]I think you are confused about the current MARTA funding situation.

1. MARTA's pre-TIA argument was that because of the 50/50 rule they could not divert capital improvement funds to operational funds to shore up funding gaps.

2. Without TIA, that money would be used on improvements. The problem is that due to the age and cost of the improvements needed, no expansion could take place.



Sounds like I was not confused except on the purpose of the $600 million. MARTA is basically leveraging the tax in order to do more capital projects outside the new transportation tax program. Am I interpreting you correctly?
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:35 PM
bu2
 
8,975 posts, read 5,670,985 times
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Because it is more than just "five bus stops". It'll be fixed ROW, road improvements, traffic light improvements to allow for better flow of the BRT, rolling stock...add it all up along with building it in a way that LRT could one day be built on it you reach $225 million real quick.


Thanks for the input. The description in the paper and on the website wasn't very clear.





This sounds like an assumption on your part, but lets say it is an engineering study. There is one big problem that would need to be solved with connecting Gwinnett County with where Doraville station is located: Spaghetti Junction. Engineering studies are more involved than just drawing some pretty mockups. They have to figure out if they are going to build a gigantic bridge or tunnel and if they tunnel they've got to figure out what they'll be tunneling through. Oh, then there are the obstacles to overcome like cutting already existing development.

In newspaper and internet articles, the Gwinnet line was described as being cut but money left in for engineering. Doesn't MARTA already have track run past 285 beyond the Doraville station? Or is that only the RR track? If its only the RR, it still doesn't seem like that big an obstacle as the track already runs under 285.


Not that your opinion on this matter counts. One way or another the Beltline is going to be built and you'll just have sit back and enjoy it.[/quote]

And the other guy thought Cherokee Co. was pretty arrogant. Sorry, but I have a vote also. And its going to be pretty hard to get the money without this tax. And I'll suffer if it gets built because I use the limited E/W roads that this streetcar will virtually shut down. That is, until the suffocating traffic drives us to move to the burbs.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:42 PM
bu2
 
8,975 posts, read 5,670,985 times
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And how exactly does the Beltline destroy the bus system? If anything, the Beltline will make the bus system better. It'll replace all the routes that currently serve districts that do not have rail and divert those buses to more localized service which, by it's nature, will be faster and more efficient.


I didn't answer your other question. MARTA just cut 40% of the bus routes. The operating costs of a system that noone rides will force more cuts to the bus system. And since its mostly circular through areas that aren't very dense and doesn't go anywhere people need to go, it doesn't provide much help to bus riders. The Beltline would be vastly more useful if it were used for dedicated bus lanes which a whole variety of different routes could use for part of their route, instead of basically a circular train that goes nowhere serving nobody in the hope that 20 or 30 years from now developers will build a bunch of high rise buildings to make it dense.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:55 PM
bu2
 
8,975 posts, read 5,670,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-SawDude View Post
I think you're overreacting and, to a certain extent, straw-manning my and others' positions in this thread (and maybe elsewhere on this forum). If you look back at my prior posts, I never claimed that a fully anti-road point of view is more logical than a fully anti-transit one. In fact, I was pointing out that the South Fulton example was anti-road widening/expansion. It didn't advocate the complete destruction of all highways.

I've seen very few folks on here or elsewhere who are so anti-road that they're claiming things like, "Shut down the highways completely. Let's only use trains." So I don't really know from where exactly these transit ghosts are haunting you.

Your over-reacting. I never said that or implied that. And you are taking personally what was not directed at you. There are many people here and elsewhere who want to make it difficult to drive a car. There are many who talk about peak oil and claim noone will want to drive when gas reaches $X per gallon or cars will become extinct because there is no more oil (which just means we'll be driving electric cars). Noone advocates destroying all roads, just making it a pain to drive.


Most of us (including me) are trying to find a balance between multiple modes of transportation. I personally feel that roads already have enough funding mechanisms in place (e.g. gas tax revenues) that I think this transit tax needs to be like 75/25 in favor of transit/roads. That's not an unreasonable position. Nor is it an "anti-road" attitude, as you suggest.

Now, I HAVE heard folks, like the Cherokee County example above and the GA Tea Party, be completely against adding any trains whatsoever. They are so pro-car that they are anti-public transit (sometimes including bus service).

If you can't see the differences in the absolutism of these attitudes, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I also find it utterly ridiculous to claim that Atlanta historically or currently has any discernible degree of "anti-road mania." You've got to be joking.
How many road projects have been built since the Olympics (not that any transit projects have been done either)? If a claim that we shouldn't build any more roads isn't anti-road I don't know what is. And you get a lot of that is this area and from some area leaders. You obviously can't see there's little difference because you agree with one of the extremes.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:11 PM
 
3,208 posts, read 4,508,696 times
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I think roads and transit are both underfunded.

What do I win for being moderate?
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:17 PM
 
28,137 posts, read 24,659,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50 View Post
What do I win for being moderate?
You get the take home version of the Barack Obama I-Can't-Please-Nobody game. And a 5% off coupon for your next ride on the Beltline after 11 pm, other restrictions may apply.

Last edited by arjay57; 08-16-2011 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:36 PM
 
906 posts, read 1,441,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50 View Post
I think roads and transit are both underfunded.

What do I win for being moderate?
I love how saying I'm for a transportation list with a ratio of 75/25 transit to roads--especially in light of the virtual lack of public transit funding from state coffers--makes me an "extremist" who hates roads. Sheesh!
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Home of the Braves
1,164 posts, read 926,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
a circular train that goes nowhere serving nobody in the hope that 20 or 30 years from now developers will build a bunch of high rise buildings to make it dense.
How do you make Atlanta grow inward instead of continuing to sprawl outward? You do it the same way you created the suburbs and exurbs -- you invest in the infrastructure that makes the City of Atlanta a desirable place to live. Instead of replacing forests and farms with freeways, sewer systems, and strip malls, you replace brownfields and urban decay with transit-connected neighborhoods and greenspace. The Beltline is a huge leap in the right direction.

And I don't have a problem with suburbs! They've been very desirable places for families to live -- that's why they're there. But we need to make the same kinds of investments in the desirability of the city. The whole metro will benefit from efforts like the Beltline that make Atlanta a place that people want to live.
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:05 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,611,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron H View Post
How do you make Atlanta grow inward instead of continuing to sprawl outward? You do it the same way you created the suburbs and exurbs -- you invest in the infrastructure that makes the City of Atlanta a desirable place to live. Instead of replacing forests and farms with freeways, sewer systems, and strip malls, you replace brownfields and urban decay with transit-connected neighborhoods and greenspace. The Beltline is a huge leap in the right direction.

And I don't have a problem with suburbs! They've been very desirable places for families to live -- that's why they're there. But we need to make the same kinds of investments in the desirability of the city. The whole metro will benefit from efforts like the Beltline that make Atlanta a place that people want to live.

The tax has to have a solid mix of road projects because it is for a 10 county area and has to benefit the entire region. As much as I would like to see an expanded MARTA, the tax proposal is useless if it doesn't pass and it won't pass if you can't get a majority of the region to buy into the proposal. That is the bottom line. Spending 75% on transit when a small minority of the region would use the transit system makes NO SENSE.
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Old 08-17-2011, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Home of the Braves
1,164 posts, read 926,144 times
Reputation: 1148
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
The tax has to have a solid mix of road projects because it is for a 10 county area and has to benefit the entire region. As much as I would like to see an expanded MARTA, the tax proposal is useless if it doesn't pass and it won't pass if you can't get a majority of the region to buy into the proposal. That is the bottom line. Spending 75% on transit when a small minority of the region would use the transit system makes NO SENSE.
Cool, but...I think you meant to reply to K-SawDude. He's the extremist who wants 75% transit.
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