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Old 07-15-2011, 03:56 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,573 posts, read 5,299,109 times
Reputation: 2396

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I would hazard a guess that the poster who is the subject of this response has read "The Bell Curve" by Hernstein & Murray too many times to count on both hands.

The intellectualisation of racism is getting pretty old. I just wish that some of the other posters(one of which I hold in very high regards) weren't so willing to enable this guy just for the sake of conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post


The fact is you are just literally making this up. The academic record of Morehouse speaks for itself. No one gets in to Wharton or Harvard Law just because. Those institutions are prestigious for a reason: They only except the best and what Morehouse has produced consistantly for the last 144 years is constant stream of the best. Again, the record speaks for itself:

In the last 20 years Morehouse has produced three Rhodes Scholars in 1994, 2001, and 2004. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

In the last 20 years Morehouse has produced seven Fulbright Scholars. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

Since 1999 Morehouse has produced five Marshall Scholars, five Luce Scholars, four Watson Fellows and one White House Fellow. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

You have no proof of your charges and your implication that Morehouse Men succeed mainly because of the color is downright despicable.

 
Old 07-15-2011, 07:01 AM
 
2,406 posts, read 3,345,252 times
Reputation: 907
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:35 AM
 
257 posts, read 469,162 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post


Oh stop with the BS. Where is your data proving your point beyond your own opinion that Morehouse grads have great career prostects and over represent in top tier graduate programs solely to "diversity recruiting" and Affirmative Action?

For one, Morehouse College has been around for 144 years and has produced high achieving grads since day one as noted by their very extensive notable alumni list. Why do I bring this up? During the majority of Morehouse's existence, programs such as Affirmative Action or "diversity recruiting" not only didn't exist but the deck was stacked in such a way in America that most Black men could not reach the upper echelons of corporate America, medicine, science or any other discipline. Yet, Morehouse Men still succeeded.

Another reason is that Morehouse and Spelman aren't the only HBCUs, rather there are over 100. So to say the only reason why Morehouse sends such a high number of it's grads to elite graduate schools and prestigious corporations is due to those institutions/corporations wanting mainly to make their body more diverse would be a gigantic statistical anomaly. If that were the main goal of those institutions/corporations they have a very large pool of HBCUs to choose from, yet Morehouse in particular is over represented in that regard compared to most HBCUs. So which is more likely, there is some vast effort to elevate Morehouse Men erroneously or that Morehouse Men succeed because of their training at Morehouse?

The fact is you are just literally making this up. The academic record of Morehouse speaks for itself. No one gets in to Wharton or Harvard Law just because. Those institutions are prestigious for a reason: They only except the best and what Morehouse has produced consistantly for the last 144 years is constant stream of the best. Again, the record speaks for itself:

In the last 20 years Morehouse has produced three Rhodes Scholars in 1994, 2001, and 2004. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

In the last 20 years Morehouse has produced seven Fulbright Scholars. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

Since 1999 Morehouse has produced five Marshall Scholars, five Luce Scholars, four Watson Fellows and one White House Fellow. Were those men chosen merely because of their skin or because they got a world class education at Morehouse?

You have no proof of your charges and your implication that Morehouse Men succeed mainly because of the color is downright despicable.
Why don't you look at the numbers? Go on lawschoolnumbers.com and play around a little bit and tell me what you find when you control for URM and non-URM. You're ignoring the empirical data here.

You must be a Morehouse grad . I'm sure Harvard "excepts" a few of the best, but they're more likely to accept them.

As far as the why "Morehouse, but not other HBCUs argument," this is pretty easy to explain. Morehouse is one of the best HBCUs. Right up there with Howard. Of course the kids who go to one of the better schools in the category go on to be more successful than those who don't.

Also, black and Hispanic people from those other institutions that decide to go to medical and law school are afforded the exact same URM bump that Morehouse gets. Do you really think that Morehouse students taking the LSAT consistently outperform Harvard (166), Yale (165), Princeton (165)? Those mean scores aren't high enough to get a white guy into Harvard. Probably more on par with Georgia Southern, a school behind which Morehouse lags in incoming student qualifications as a matter of fact. That would be about a 148 LSAT mean. Heck, Georgia Tech averages a 158 and Emory a 159. Seriously think Morehouse students consistently outscore those kids? Highly improbable if not impossible. And before you say that grad schools look past the scores when they see Morehouse College on the diploma, I will state again that undergrad institution does not factor into graduate school decisions in any meaningful way. Do some research and you'll see this.

As far as my data about diversity recruiting, I really don't have to prove much of anything, because this stuff is just a well-accepted fact of how things work, but I will just for fun. We can look at schools with similar student body qualifications and see what their job prospects are. Morehouse is ranked 127 in the national liberal arts college category. Its 25% and 75% SAT scores are 440-560 for critical reading and 440-570 for math. Yikes, not so hot. Georgia College and State University has a 530-610 reading and a 530-610 math. Not quite as bad. Both liberal arts schools. But Morehouse somehow has much better career prospects, more kids sent to top schools, etc. Why? What's different between the two schools? Why does Morehouse have prospects more similar to Williams College than what it is (a mediocre university)? Oh sure, it's the education difference. LOL. No, my friends, the big difference is in race.

I'm sorry that this is hard for you to accept. And for the record, I think Morehouse is a solid school. I just am backing up that there is no reason for a white person to go there when there are better, cheaper schools in the fine state of Georgia. Please, please just look at the numbers, and do a little research. I'm not making anything up.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 07:53 AM
 
72,875 posts, read 62,373,317 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
For me, the most enfuriating thing about being associated with the HBCU I am assocaited with is the lack of character of so many of the students. Cheating is so rampant and accepted as the norm that it is part of the culture. In my experience, the administration I've dealt with is dominated by poor decision makers and non-leaders. The students are treated very poorly by the administrators. It is very difficult to get anything accomplished unless you have a relationship with the person who handles that one particulr job function. No one does their job becuase it is their job, they are doing their job out of a favor to you. The environment is also one where the HBCU is always looking to milk a little more money out of the students. There are always big budget issues and it never focuses on how they can cut costs and be more efficient, but what fee they can raise. (That might not be that different from state schools right now, but I am talking about a $35,000+ a year school). I used to hear great things of this school as it is regarded as one of the top HBCUs in the country and held vrey highly. After being associated with it, I can't hold back laughter when I here these comments. I am also tired of every guest speaker coming in and telling them about how the white man is trying to hold them back. Why invite these speakers?
Sounding a little bit more like Kennesaw State University each day.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 07:58 AM
 
92,717 posts, read 123,032,038 times
Reputation: 18208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp01358 View Post
"White students who failed to make the grade on all counts were nearly twice as prevalent on such campuses as black and Hispanic students who received an admissions break based on their ethnicity or race."

If you look at how this is worded, it says nothing at all. Take Harvard as an example. 44% of Harvard students are white, and 15% of Harvard students are black or Hispanic (from collegeboard.com). To say that under-qualified students almost twice as likely to be white than black or Hispanic means nothing when students are nearly three times as likely to be white than black or Hispanic in general. Clever wordplay to say a lot of nothing. To draw the inference from this that the author draws you would have to have the percentage of black and Hispanic students that are under-qualified from the black and Hispanic student population versus the percentage of white students who are under-qualified from the white population. Then you would compare the percentage.

What he is saying is that, perhaps 30% of the white student population is under-qualified and 50% of the black and Hispanic population is under-qualified. Well if you have 2000 students, 880 (44%) of them are white, and 300 (15%) of them are black/Hispanic. Then 264 (30%) of the whites are under-qualified, and 150 (50%) of the black/Hispanic population is under-qualified. Then, you are nearly twice as likely to have an under-qualified white person on campus as an under-qualified black/Hispanic person. But it doesn't say anything, because it does not take into account the relative percentages by race. However, accounting for the differences in relative enrollment by race, the black/Hispanic students would be nearly twice as likely to have gotten a break (by this hypothetical formula of course).

You also ignore that the article is discussing undergraduate admissions. Undergraduate admissions do not have nearly the URM bump that graduate admissions have. The higher you go in education, the more scarce black and Hispanic students are, thus the higher bump they get in admissions.

Also note that I am not arguing either for or against affirmative action here. I am simply stating that it plays a huge role in graduate admissions; a much, much bigger role than the name on your undergraduate diploma. This is why Morehouse bragging about how many of its students go to top grad schools does not reflect on the school's prestige.
I understand that you were discussing graduate admissions, but I think the whole scope of admissions is still relevant regardless if it is graduate or undergraduate admissions.

I think the article is getting at the issue of rejection as well, as many use Black and Hispanic students as scapegoats, but never think of how many White students get in due to breaks of some kind. Most non-HBCU campuses, especially private colleges, tend to have percentages of Blacks and Hispanics in the 3-10% range, with most in the middle. I actually work at a school that could probably be an example of a college the writer is talking about, as there are more examples than Harvard and the demographics will vary.

It did also leave out the aspect of the types of Black and Hispanic students as well. Meaning, African students could come from a different background in terms of education, whether in their nation of origin or here in the States. Same with those of a Caribbean background, let alone the upper middle class to affluent African-American student. So, they might not necessarily need a break, especially when looking at the make up of said population at those private colleges in many cases. Same could probably be said about some of the Hispanic students as well.

Also, could those Black and Hispanic students that do go on to pursue graduate studies, just end up being an acception group as well? Considering the status of a Morehouse, could it just be that the student that comes out of that school be one of a high caliber?
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:23 AM
 
257 posts, read 469,162 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I understand that you were discussing graduate admissions, but I think the whole scope of admissions is still relevant regardless if it is graduate or undergraduate admissions.

I think the article is getting at the issue of rejection as well, as many use Black and Hispanic students as scapegoats, but never think of how many White students get in due to breaks of some kind. Most non-HBCU campuses, especially private colleges, tend to have percentages of Blacks and Hispanics in the 3-10% range, with most in the middle. I actually work at a school that could probably be an example of a college the writer is talking about, as there are more examples than Harvard and the demographics will vary.

It did also leave out the aspect of the types of Black and Hispanic students as well. Meaning, African students could come from a different background in terms of education, whether in their nation of origin or here in the States. Same with those of a Caribbean background, let alone the upper middle class to affluent African-American student. So, they might not necessarily need a break, especially when looking at the make up of said population at those private colleges in many cases. Same could probably be said about some of the Hispanic students as well.

Also, could those Black and Hispanic students that do go on to pursue graduate studies, just end up being an acception group as well? Considering the status of a Morehouse, could it just be that the student that comes out of that school be one of a high caliber?
It could be that Morehouse does produce quite a high number of high caliber people. I think it does actually. My point is that the number of Morehouse grads going to top graduate programs is a bit skewed because of affirmative action, so that the school does not necessarily deserve the credit for that.

I am not against affirmative action. I think that affirmative action was definitely needed, and still is to a lesser extent. My problem is that affirmative action focuses too much on race. I would like to see affirmative action focus more on other factors, namely socio-economic status. The poor blacks, whites, Hispanics, etc could all get a boost to help them break out of the cycle, without elevating anybody based mostly on race. This would be more fair, and probably more effective.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:36 AM
 
92,717 posts, read 123,032,038 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
How many are African American at Harvard?
7.2% according to the NCES website.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:36 AM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,477 posts, read 14,951,366 times
Reputation: 7278
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
I would hazard a guess that the poster who is the subject of this response has read "The Bell Curve" by Hernstein & Murray too many times to count on both hands.

The intellectualisation of racism is getting pretty old. I just wish that some of the other posters(one of which I hold in very high regards) weren't so willing to enable this guy just for the sake of conversation.
Absolutely. It is disgusting.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:46 AM
 
257 posts, read 469,162 times
Reputation: 172
Ha ha I'm racist now. Ok, this is unbelievable. This is why white people are afraid to talk about anything dealing with race at all.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:50 AM
 
92,717 posts, read 123,032,038 times
Reputation: 18208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp01358 View Post
It could be that Morehouse does produce quite a high number of high caliber people. I think it does actually. My point is that the number of Morehouse grads going to top graduate programs is a bit skewed because of affirmative action, so that the school does not necessarily deserve the credit for that.

I am not against affirmative action. I think that affirmative action was definitely needed, and still is to a lesser extent. My problem is that affirmative action focuses too much on race. I would like to see affirmative action focus more on other factors, namely socio-economic status. The poor blacks, whites, Hispanics, etc could all get a boost to help them break out of the cycle, without elevating anybody based mostly on race. This would be more fair, and probably more effective.
Actually, White women have benefited the most from it. Considering that they are the largest historically disenfranchised group in the country, as well as the fact that their total population is roughly the same as all racial minorities combined, it makes sense. I agree socio-economics should be considered and in turn it would help racial minorities when you consider poverty rates by race.

Also, I'm wondering if the article I posted could apply to graduate school to some degree?
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