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Whether to continue the toll was widely debated. The State Transportation Board was adamant that it would honor the original promise to end the tolls, but they eventually yielded to pressure from the CIDs, the mayors, ARC, local civic groups, etc., who really wanted to keep the tolls in place. So it wasn't a situation where the state pulled a fast one at all.
Here are some of the GA 400 projects (scroll down to the bottom of the page):
All I seem to remember about the process was a few articles in the AJC, a general sense of outrage, and a finding that the 400/85 project came in under budget and thus the toll extension was "unnecessary" (not that I agree with this).
I'm not saying the state did anything bad, just the from the perspective of someone who doesn't really care about this (I don't take 400 regularly) it seems like most of the press has been negative, and I've heard very little about the benefits. The fact that people are outraged that a project came in under budget is, of course, absurdity.
All I seem to remember about the process was a few articles in the AJC, a general sense of outrage, and a finding that the 400/85 project came in under budget and thus the toll extension was "unnecessary" (not that I agree with this).
I'm not saying the state did anything bad, just the from the perspective of someone who doesn't really care about this (I don't take 400 regularly) it seems like most of the press has been negative, and I've heard very little about the benefits. The fact that people are outraged that a project came in under budget is, of course, absurdity.
It's the usual. Some people will scream bloody murder about a 50 cent toll, but they still want their road improvements and top flight maintenance.
In my opinion, that's why the business community and the civic groups were so adamant about keeping the toll in place. Once you get rid of it, it would be almost impossible to bring it back.
Without it, you can basically kiss any improvements good-bye, or wait until your next lifetime to see them happen. Nobody likes forking out an extra 50 cents but at least with a user fee you can control your own destiny at the local level rather than have your money disappear into the great black hole of government.
Note my post here for some of the other considerations involved.
It's the usual. Some people will scream bloody murder about a 50 cent toll, but they still want their road improvements and top flight maintenance.
In my opinion, that's why the business community and the civic groups were so adamant about keeping the toll in place. Once you get rid of it, it would be almost impossible to bring it back.
Without it, you can basically kiss any improvements good-bye, or wait until your next lifetime to see them happen. Nobody likes forking out an extra 50 cents but at least with a user fee you can control your own destiny at the local level rather than have your money disappear into the great black hole of government.
Note my post here for some of the other considerations involved.
I'm glad someone around here thinks like this. Roads aren't built for free!
I'm sorry, but building a parallel interstate to the connector is not ever going to happen, nor should it. We need to accept that the majority of our urban roadbuilding has been done. We instead need to focus on (1) expanding other transit options for urban areas and (2) developing better planning for road/transit access in areas that are not yet urban but are getting there, such as Perimeter. Building a new interstate within the city limits is going to be another Big Dig.
Downtowns don't need to have impeccable interstate access to thrive. New York, Philadelphia, and San Francisco all have far worse interstate access than we do in their downtown areas, but their downtowns are far more vibrant and bustling. And it's not like the Texas cities are beating them, despite the loops around which suburban commuters can zoom.
A parallel alternate highway to 75/85 is mandatory, necessary, and inevitable. The downtown connector is the most visible, important, and most economically vital corridor in the entire State.
For over a decade the State has turned a blind eye to traffic stopped in both directions at any given time of the day. This indifference has already hurt the state's economy through companies not relocating here.
The largest state east of the mississppi, the poster child of sprawl with "exurban" counties and their commuters, cannot forever depend on a single highway for north-south travel, which was designed for the 2.5 million people in Atlanta in 1989. In 2040 the 8.3 million poeple here cannot only have the downtown connector for north-south travel, which also must be shared with heavy out-of state motorists.
Atlanta's one loop intersecting a few radial multi-state interstates is grossly inadequate for a population that's doubled and will continue to grow in all directions.
An alternate to relieve the 75/85 connector isn't to "make a great downtown" like NY, SF, it's to accommodate the millions of people traversing the region in all directions. It's absurd that 3 million people in the northern counties cannot travel amongst one another unless they head down to Atlanta to use I-285. North Carolina would have built 3 loops around Atlanta by now. There are so many roads in NC, you can go anywhere 5 different ways.
Your argument about mass transit and livable cities cannot be cut and pasted to apply to metro Atlanta. Someone going from Norcoss to Jonesboro (and thousands probably do everyday) cannot stop, park, and use MARTA through central Atlanta, then be carless unable to arrive at their destination.
You're dreaming if you think Atlanta will ever put forth the effort to build a decent city infrastructure. I walk everywhere and see firsthand the utter neglect in every aspect. Sometimes it's all they can do to keep the electricity on here.
GDOT has done nothing to plan for the region's future mobility. Arterials improvements, a complete doubling of Atlanta's highway system, conversion to superstreets, should all be being built for the 8.3 million future residents.
In North Carolina, urban loops and hundreds of miles of new highways are being built as we speak. High speed rail improvements are being built as we speak. Every US and NC highway corridor through the cities and across the state has fully laid out improvement plans implemented in stages well into the future. As expected NC will retake its historical lead in population in the Southeast in a couple of years. Georgia became #1 in 2000 and still is by 200,000.
Oh, and NYC's fabulous livability is made possible by the MTA (Subway), which is the 5th largest debtor in the country, behind Calif, Mass. State of NY, NYC. It owes $30 billion, and it would cost about $8 per ride on the NYC subway to cover the actual cost of the trip. SF's new bay bridge is costing about $4 Billion and will have $5 tolls in both directions. The 5 boroughs of NYC have 3 times as many interstates as Atlanta with more total mileage. The Bay Area also has far more interstates than Atlanta.
75/85 should be double-decked, add a viaduct for thru traffic, or some existing road bypassing downtown should be converted to an expressway.
By not building alternatives to Atlanta's one big simple layout of highways, what happens is the cost of improving the GA400/I-285 interchange becomes astronomical, $500 million (as per next year's sales tax referendum) for improvements to that one interchange, necessary because everybody and their brother is being funneled through one interchange. Doesn't have to be like this.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
9,855 posts, read 10,910,276 times
Reputation: 2549
Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50
The fact that Minnesota's economy is two-thirds the size of Georgia's and yet is $500 billion short is just complete ownage. Maybe elect some more connected congressmen or something?
Well, they unelected Oberstar this past cycle. I'm asking over in the MN forum about those numbers. They don't seem good to me.
A parallel alternate highway to 75/85 is mandatory, necessary, and inevitable. The downtown connector is the most visible, important, and most economically vital corridor in the entire State.
For over a decade the State has turned a blind eye to traffic stopped in both directions at any given time of the day. This indifference has already hurt the state's economy through companies not relocating here.
The largest state east of the mississppi, the poster child of sprawl with "exurban" counties and their commuters, cannot forever depend on a single highway for north-south travel, which was designed for the 2.5 million people in Atlanta in 1989. In 2040 the 8.3 million poeple here cannot only have the downtown connector for north-south travel, which also must be shared with heavy out-of state motorists.
Atlanta's one loop intersecting a few radial multi-state interstates is grossly inadequate for a population that's doubled and will continue to grow in all directions.
An alternate to relieve the 75/85 connector isn't to "make a great downtown" like NY, SF, it's to accommodate the millions of people traversing the region in all directions. It's absurd that 3 million people in the northern counties cannot travel amongst one another unless they head down to Atlanta to use I-285. North Carolina would have built 3 loops around Atlanta by now. There are so many roads in NC, you can go anywhere 5 different ways.
Your argument about mass transit and livable cities cannot be cut and pasted to apply to metro Atlanta. Someone going from Norcoss to Jonesboro (and thousands probably do everyday) cannot stop, park, and use MARTA through central Atlanta, then be carless unable to arrive at their destination.
You're dreaming if you think Atlanta will ever put forth the effort to build a decent city infrastructure. I walk everywhere and see firsthand the utter neglect in every aspect. Sometimes it's all they can do to keep the electricity on here.
GDOT has done nothing to plan for the region's future mobility. Arterials improvements, a complete doubling of Atlanta's highway system, conversion to superstreets, should all be being built for the 8.3 million future residents.
In North Carolina, urban loops and hundreds of miles of new highways are being built as we speak. High speed rail improvements are being built as we speak. Every US and NC highway corridor through the cities and across the state has fully laid out improvement plans implemented in stages well into the future. As expected NC will retake its historical lead in population in the Southeast in a couple of years. Georgia became #1 in 2000 and still is by 200,000.
Oh, and NYC's fabulous livability is made possible by the MTA (Subway), which is the 5th largest debtor in the country, behind Calif, Mass. State of NY, NYC. It owes $30 billion, and it would cost about $8 per ride on the NYC subway to cover the actual cost of the trip. SF's new bay bridge is costing about $4 Billion and will have $5 tolls in both directions. The 5 boroughs of NYC have 3 times as many interstates as Atlanta with more total mileage. The Bay Area also has far more interstates than Atlanta.
75/85 should be double-decked, add a viaduct for thru traffic, or some existing road bypassing downtown should be converted to an expressway.
By not building alternatives to Atlanta's one big simple layout of highways, what happens is the cost of improving the GA400/I-285 interchange becomes astronomical, $500 million (as per next year's sales tax referendum) for improvements to that one interchange, necessary because everybody and their brother is being funneled through one interchange. Doesn't have to be like this.
There is another aspect to this that dont take into account...Clean Air Standards which Atlanta spent years on the wrong side of and had to spend a lot to be in compliance. There was no help doing this on the state level...there is never any help on the state level. Back to my point...this is why double decking the connector is a no go (other than the billions it would cost that could actually fund a transit system worthy of our city). As for the MTA, the problem there is that the state of NY removed the tolls on bridges thus removing a major source of funding for the MTA. Most of their debt is from "debt service" not capitol projects
Well, they unelected Oberstar this past cycle. I'm asking over in the MN forum about those numbers. They don't seem good to me.
Not the brightest move on their part since he probably steered tons of money their way. We dont have many in the GA delegation that are willing to fight for money we need for projects other than Rep Lewis (and thats even pretty limited in comparison to most with his seniority), and he doesn't sit as a ranking member on the committees that award money. He is on Ways and Means I believe...but in a Republican controlled congress he wont get much
There is another aspect to this that dont take into account...Clean Air Standards which Atlanta spent years on the wrong side of and had to spend a lot to be in compliance. There was no help doing this on the state level...there is never any help on the state level. Back to my point...this is why double decking the connector is a no go (other than the billions it would cost that could actually fund a transit system worthy of our city). As for the MTA, the problem there is that the state of NY removed the tolls on bridges thus removing a major source of funding for the MTA. Most of their debt is from "debt service" not capitol projects
I hadn't thought about air quality when suggesting double-decking. And yes, it would be way expensive to pour all that concrete beside an active interstate. I'll find some dilapidated street west of downtown to locate an alternate to the 75/85 connector.
Every bridge surrounding Manhattan is tolled to the hilt in both directions. It's the first place they go to in closing a budget gap. Verrazono Brdige: $12. Holland, Lincoln $8 (only into Manh.) Queensboro, Midtown Tunnel, GWB, all $4-$8. The state of NY and NYC are the most fiscally mismanaged, dysfunctional entities on earth. Unions rule and the State's insolvency is always someone else's problem, not theirs.
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Roads aren't built for free!
