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I'm sure you're right, but from my point of view as long as they leave me and mine alone you can call it whatever you like. I'll take a blatant bigot any day over the more clandestine kind. I know how to put the blatant bigots on ignore. Back in the mid-nineties when I first got online there was this guy who was an absolute racist, he posted some of the most vile screed you could ever imagine on all the African American boards. Well somebody backtracked him and found his real name, home address, name of his business and even where his kids went to school. They posted it all over the place. I remember how horrified he was, and I thought it was very interesting when he said that he didn't talk about this kind of stuff with his wife and kids, that they had no idea. So again, I think a lot of these people are venting simply because they can be anonymous. Frankly I'd rather see them posting their foolywang on here than burning my home to the ground. This is relatively harmless and easily ignore.
As for your other point, maybe I'm just cynical, but in my experience it seems that there are three truisms in politics: They all steal, they screw around on their wives and the more opposed they are to something the more likely it is that they're doing it themselves, especially if it pertains to sex or money.
I agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykomonkee
I agree that there IS infact still a hint of a racial divide in Atlanta.
I blame that racial divide for the past votes that have rejected MARTA from expanding outward to Cobb and Gwinnett.
I blame that racial divide for the incorporation of Sandy Springs, GA (which I believe, though may have been good for Sandy Springs, is very bad for ATLANTA).
I blame that racial divide for the talks of the secession of Buckhead to incorporate into its own municipality separate from Atlanta, which would plumit Atlanta, and we can all kiss the Atlanta metro growth goodbye.
I can agree that it is definitely not nearly as bad as many other major cities, but those major cities that have racial divide problems are well beyond a point that the racial divide can ever hold the city back like it still can in Atlanta.
Atlanta (IMO) is not as racially divided as Los Angeles, New York City, Richmond, Jacksonville and Boston, but LA, NYC and Boston are far beyond the point that Atlanta is at today (though they still share some of the same issues like traffic).
But I also agree with this. I do think there is a racial divide in Atlanta but that it is not halting the growth of the city. Atlanta is consistently ranked as one of the most segregated cities in America and that may have something to do with the historical location of people's property back during the era of legal segregation.
I would rather the focus also be on transit though. It is ridiculous how bad traffic is here. I do feel the focus should be on public transit and expanding/upgrading MARTA farther into Cobb, Gwinnet, and Clayton county especially, also others. It could make Atlanta a first class metro area IMO. I intentially moved to the city in a lower class, most consider a bad neighborhood because I was sick of dealing with traffic and now only live a mile from my job downtown. We are all much happier not having to spend so much time in the car and I rarely go anywhere outside of a five mile radius for anything unless we go to Gwinnet to visit relatives which is a PITA since Gwinnet IMO always is full of traffic even on weekends. It is ridiculous.
But I don't feel that race is holding Atlanta back though, even with all of the racial divides and segregation as this goes on in pretty much all major cities in America so it is not something unique to Atlanta.
Wanted to add I am black and not low class and really I am kind of blah on Atlanta. I like the city but will more than likely move back to the Midwest but probably not for a while, about 10 years or so, so I do want to see Atlanta achieve more in the way of public transportation and become better in other ways.
I agree with this.
But I don't feel that race is holding Atlanta back though, even with all of the racial divides and segregation as this goes on in pretty much all major cities in America so it is not something unique to Atlanta.
I hear your point. While I did say that the racial divide does contribute to holding Atlanta back, I want to clerify that I do not mean that race is the deciding factor in why Atlanta is in such a critical position. So, I can agree with you on this.
I DO think that race does play a part, but it is NOT the brick wall that Atlanta is having trouble busting through.
Actually, I think the real reason's entirely different: Texas has plenty of space for their roads. Heck, when they built Beltway 8, they left space for the freeway after building just the access roads in some places--a common practice in that state.
Contrast that with around here--there is NO space to add brand-new highways. That's probably the single biggest obstacle to the Northern Arc: They'd have to destroy a lot of property to build it. Where are we going to put a brand new highway? Whose houses are we willing to blow up to build it? These are not hypothetical questions, bu. The 400 expansion from 85 to the Perimeter took out a LOT of real estate and was thus bitterly opposed by residents there. So was the planned Stone Mountain Freeway and I-675 extensions, which residents were able to halt.
Furthermore, how good is traffic *really* in Houston? They've got two complete loops, a third one on the way, seven ways to get out of downtown on freeways as opposed to our five--they have no Downtown Connector--more miles of freeway per area, and despite all of that, their traffic is at least as bad as ours. Maybe because it's they too have terrible sprawl, not to mention a grand total of one transit rail line?
Texas has plenty of space for their roads because they actually thought about future expansion when they built them to begin with. A lot of today's major highways in Houston and Dallas were the middle of nowhere when their land was first acquired for building those roads. That is why they have plenty of space. The solution to shooting yourself in the foot isn't to keep shooting. Atlanta is in a big fat hole when it comes to road infrastructure. If they want to get out of it, it will cost a lot more money and cause a much bigger ruckus than if they had done any sort of future planning to begin with. And it makes me sad because I used to love metro Atlanta, but after driving in Dallas/Ft. Worth traffic for the past 6 months, I don't ever want to move back to Atlanta traffic.
Here are some things I contribute to Atlanta's critical state:
1. Greed & Politics.
Atlanta (like most cities) is full of crooked politicians and lobbyists. People looking for someone to scratch their backs. Unfortunately, so many decisions in Atlanta's past have been made with "how can I cut a corner and save an extra buck" as the primary deciding factor.
2. Lack of vision.
Atlanta is a unique city to me. There are VERY FEW cities of its size so filled to the rim with artists. Yet, Atlanta still has not capitalized on the fact of having so many artists. Atlanta could be an artists' haven, but the wrong people are running the city and making the decisions. The people are here. The vision is here. But the people with the visions are not the people with the positions, money and power.
3. Lack of Pride.
I move around a LOT and have travelled a LOT. One thing I've found is that the majority of people I meet have similar views of Atlanta. Not views that are prideful. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I'm saying most people I meet don't like Atlanta. They DO like Atlanta, but not as a place they are PROUD of. They will live there because of the nice house they can afford. Or will go there because it's "Hotlanta" where the party is. But, they all typically are more fond of and proud of other places. They would rather be somewhere else, given that place could afford them the cost of living, home or party life that Atlanta does. Because of that, there just aren't enough people that TRULY CARE about Atlanta's issues, as long as it is not affecting their immediate life. And they are usualy ready to jump ship the moment Atlanta starts to sink...
4. The Black Vote
Atlanta may not be as racially divided as other successful cities, however in the Atlanta area, many city issues are voted on with race and class influenced votes. Unfortunate fact: Many black people simply do not vote... They may have voted in the last presidential election, but ask black people and see how many plan to vote on the $0.01 tax vote next summer... I bet you will be hard pressed to find ONE that even knows about it (that isn't a poster on City-Data). Atlanta is clearly majority black. Even many of the surrounding areas. BUT, when it comes time to vote on the current issues (Should Atlanta raise a tax to build transit, a new airport, a new reservoir, etc...) it is not the majority of the people who will be most affected by the vote that show up to vote...
5. Money
Everything that needs to happen to Atlanta will cost money. LOTS of it. But NOBODY wants to be the one paying for it. There aren't enough people in the Atlanta region that are financially comfortable enough to see how paying a little extra today will save them money long term. I'm willing to bet if there is a study showing cities ranked by the amount of citizens that are living check-to-check, Atlanta is near the top of that list. Atlanta already has a high homeless rate. People in Atlanta are not being taught about money. How money works. How to keep it. How to make more of it. School doesn't teach about money. Parents do. Atlanta's history is rooted in generations of poor, Southern black AND white families that just were not taught about money. And that poor management of money is just passed down from generation to generation, until someone ends up homeless because they thought that their "oh so nice and affordable Atlanta home" was their greatest asset. Until they look up one day and the market crashes, and now they owe $400,000 on a home worth a 3rd that cost, all while losing their steady "so secure" job at the General Motors plant...
...and claim the places that they've transplanted from or even in many cases, the places where their families are from (disregarding that they were raised in Atlanta), than be proud of what Atlanta IS and provide ideas for how to improve it.
I agree with this, and it's a point someone else (Rainy?) made as well. A very high percentage of the people here are transplants and aren't really invested in the city. Actually, I'm guilty as well. I don't want to be here, and I don't like it. I'm not politically active like I was in Alabama and have no interest in anything beyond what immediately impacts me. For someone like me who has always been actively involved that's a horrible thing for me to say, but it's the way I feel. In my heart I'm not an Atlantan. It's simply a place I have to be right now because it's where my husband found a job.
And if you want to see how bad it is, hang around here during the Christmas holidays. It's absolutely wonderful because everybody goes back to where they come from and you can actually use the roads, go to the mall and even the movies and restaurants. Near as I can tell nobody is from here.
The locals can't stand Atlanta, and the 'residents' of Atlanta return the favor towards them. This is very unique, people when it comes down to it, are often proud of a town. I can count on one hand anybody who I've ever known to be proud of world-class Atlanta.
I'd have to disagree. Just the other I was walking my grandkids and ran into some neighbors who were out playing with their kids. It turns out several of them were from here, although all of us had lived in other parts of the country and around the world. They'd gravitated back here because of career opportunities and the very high quality of life. We spent 45 minutes talking about how cool Atlanta has become and how it has emerged as a true international city.
I've had similar conversations many times. Like any city, we have our issues but most Atlanta residents I know really like this place and are working hard to make it better.
And I will have to admit we're spoiled rotten on the traffic issue. If you live inside the city of Atlanta, it truly isn't a problem. It rarely takes more than 25-30 minutes to go anywhere I want, and most trips are less than 10 minutes or manageable on foot. While MARTA isn't a perfect transit system in the city it's pretty awesome. Clean and reliable. We can walk to train stations and bus service is extensive.
Other quality of life issues are superior and constantly improving. The major hospitals are 15 minutes away. We've got scads of upscale grocery stores, wine shops and the best shopping in the South within minutes. Nearly all the major business centers, universities and cultural attractions are accessible in 20 minutes or less. There's easy freeway access in all directions. Ten minutes to excellent parks and youth sports for the kids. Every kind of restaurant imaginable. Outstanding schools, and virtually zero crime. You can get to Hartsfield in 35 minutes and PDK is even closer. There's a great sense of community and I see folks out jogging and strolling all the time. We have friends and neighbors of all ethnicities who've come here from many places.
Then we can go around to the backyard and it feels like you've gone to the country. It's so quiet you can hear the crickets chirp and the frogs croak. There's abundant wildlife. The dogs can gallop to their heart's content. I was saying just the other day that now that the temperature has dropped I'd just as soon stay here as drive up to the mountains.
In my opinion you'd be hard pressed to find this kind of living elsewhere for the prices we pay in Atlanta.
So, yeah, I'm proud. The city is a work in progress but we are so far ahead of the curve compared to most places. And there are still a lot of folks here with vision and passion.
And I will have to admit we're spoiled rotten on the traffic issue. If you live inside the city of Atlanta, it truly isn't a problem. It rarely takes more than 25-30 minutes to go anywhere I want, and most trips are less than 10 minutes or manageable on foot. While MARTA isn't a perfect transit system in the city it's pretty awesome. Clean and reliable. We can walk to train stations and bus service is extensive.
Other quality of life issues are superior and constantly improving. The major hospitals are 15 minutes away. We've got scads of upscale grocery stores, wine shops and the best shopping in the South within minutes. Nearly all the major business centers, universities and cultural attractions are accessible in 20 minutes or less. There's easy freeway access in all directions. Ten minutes to excellent parks and youth sports for the kids. Every kind of restaurant imaginable. Outstanding schools, and virtually zero crime. You can get to Hartsfield in 35 minutes and PDK is even closer. There's a great sense of community and I see folks out jogging and strolling all the time. We have friends and neighbors of all ethnicities who've come here from many places.
Then we can go around to the backyard and it feels like you've gone to the country. It's so quiet you can hear the crickets chirp and the frogs croak. There's abundant wildlife. The dogs can gallop to their heart's content. I was saying just the other day that now that the temperature has dropped I'd just as soon stay here as drive up to the mountains.
All of this depends on which area of the city you reside in. I do not think many of the schools in Atlanta are "outstanding." I grew up in a medium sized midwestern city and we had much better schools and I lived in the "centra city" as they called it back then. It is shocking to me what my co-workers who are native Atlantans didn't learn in high school, things that were mandatory in my school district like keyboarding and how to use Microsoft Office Suite, just the beginner basic concepts of things like this. It is really astounding to me and I am not extremely young, in my mid 30s, I could bring up others that are shocking to me but really I do see Atlanta as having subpar schools all around, even the metro counties that are supposedly better like Gwinnet. We have family who live in Gwinnet with kids around my son's age (elementary/middle school) and those schools do not compare to what my nephews in Ohio are learning in school.
Also I have been trying to find a team for my son to play on in the Westside of Atlanta for quite some time. He wanted to play basketball and it was difficult to find a team. Youth sports are very hard to get into IMO here in Atlanta. Maybe it is because I don't live in an affluent part of town and I expect there to be a team within a couple miles of my house. I have given up trying to find something near my house and will now put my 9 year old on a team at the Y for baseball in the spring that is further than I would like to drive. When I was a kid I rode my bike a mile to a baseball diamond and joined the team and that was it. I have nephews who have joined football this season just as easily and they play soccer and baseball in Ohio with no issues finding a team, plus teams there are more affordable than here in Atlanta. I put my son on a T-ball team once, 10 miles away from us where I had to drive in rush hour traffic so it took over 45 minutes to get there, sometimes over an hour on a bad day. The team cost me $175 and they wanted me to give them the uniform back, said it was a "leased" uniform, something extremely foreign to me. I don't know anyone with kids who live in the city who think that getting involved in youth sports in close proximities to their homes/neighborhoods is easy. The ones who do live close to a sports facility and going anywhere after work for a sports practice is going to take more than 10-25 minutes. I expect to take about 30-45 minutes to drive my son to baseball in the spring. The location is only about 6 miles away but traffic will make it a long ride. This location was the closest one I could find where I didn't have to get on a freeway to get there.
I have also never seen a great sense of community here either. Kids don't come outside to play anymore. Maybe because parents are worried about crime, which is way more than non-existent and this is coming from someone who is not afraid of crime and believes that crime is WAY better than it used to be. I moved here in 1997 and crime was much worse here then than it is now. Crime was much worse in my hometown than it is in my Atlanta neighborhood, which gets an extremely bad rap on the crime front because people are so afraid of crime. But I really don't think that there is a sense of community in Atlanta. I feel maybe in certain neighborhoods of which I haven't lived in recently so maybe that is a possibility and if so, you should speak about that specific neighborhood. I feel in a lot of ways I am cheating my kids out of a childhood here as where I am from and even where my husband is from, kids still go outside and play and ride bikes and walk to the corner store. There aren't too many corner stores here and I rarely see children out. I have 2 children and wish that there were more kids about so that my kids will have someone to play with outside of school/daycare. We go to the park multiple days per week and even on nice days there is no one at the park at all. It is like everyone is a shut in.
Like I said though, I am pretty blah about Atlanta. I am involved though in my neighborhood and those of my neighbors that I do know, I like and enjoy and I do what I can to make our neighborhood better. But I just feel that Atlanta is kind of phony and maybe I will get slammed on here because of it but I do. It seems to me that most people who enjoy and love it here who are not native Atlantans are people who either have a lot of money and can afford to live in Midtown or Va Hi, or Poncey Highlands, or other more expensive neighborhoods and send their kids to private schools or those who like to spend a lot of money they don't have in order to live in those particular neighborhoods who move when they have kids. Both sets are isolated in a small corner of Atlanta and do not see the whole of the city. I have lived in various neighborhoods and suburban counties/cities in Atlanta and really don't see it as all that great but I do understand that everyone has their own viewpoints. And for the record I could afford to move in a more expensive neighborhood or even send my kids to a private school, not a pricey one, but private none-the-less, but I just don't like to stretch myself thin in finances and like to be able to live off of one income should either myself or my husband lose our jobs. I like to have a financial safety net and so I guess the trade off is shut in neighbors and limited youth sports opportunities. I guess I just feel like Atlanta doesn't have many ammenities that I was used to coming from a smaller city and I always felt that Atlanta would be better but it is not. I don't have a problem with that and Atlanta is an okay place but it is not some low crime, great schools, youth sports prevalent, family utopia.
See the article about the new exit on 400 being the 1st new freeway access since 1993?
Have you seen that GDOT has a policy not to add any freeway lanes in Atlanta? There's a policy not to expand any arterials (not that they are doing that anyway in inner Fulton and Dekalb) past 4 lanes? Do you read like I do at least once a month about "traffic calming" on major roads (i.e. slow down traffic)?
If you look at the criteria for evaluating the projects in the transportation list there are a lot of anti-car items. The most extreme is that points are given for slowing traffic (seriously!).
I agree that there IS infact still a hint of a racial divide in Atlanta.
I blame that racial divide for the past votes that have rejected MARTA from expanding outward to Cobb and Gwinnett.
I blame that racial divide for the incorporation of Sandy Springs, GA (which I believe, though may have been good for Sandy Springs, is very bad for ATLANTA).
I blame that racial divide for the talks of the secession of Buckhead to incorporate into its own municipality separate from Atlanta, which would plumit Atlanta, and we can all kiss the Atlanta metro growth goodbye.
I can agree that it is definitely not nearly as bad as many other major cities, but those major cities that have racial divide problems are well beyond a point that the racial divide can ever hold the city back like it still can in Atlanta.
Atlanta (IMO) is not as racially divided as Los Angeles, New York City, Richmond, Jacksonville and Boston, but LA, NYC and Boston are far beyond the point that Atlanta is at today (though they still share some of the same issues like traffic).
You forgot D.C. which is far more racially divided than Atlanta. The entire region is literally divided white and black with blacks on the eastern half and whites on the western half. The line goes right through D.C. and into the counties almost 50/50.
[quote=toll_booth;20773542]Actually, I think the real reason's entirely different: Texas has plenty of space for their roads. Heck, when they built Beltway 8, they left space for the freeway after building just the access roads in some places--a common practice in that state.
Contrast that with around here--there is NO space to add brand-new highways. That's probably the single biggest obstacle to the Northern Arc: They'd have to destroy a lot of property to build it. Where are we going to put a brand new highway? Whose houses are we willing to blow up to build it? These are not hypothetical questions, bu. The 400 expansion from 85 to the Perimeter took out a LOT of real estate and was thus bitterly opposed by residents there. So was the planned Stone Mountain Freeway and I-675 extensions, which residents were able to halt.
There's part of the different approach. Texas took down a lot of businesses on their recent expansion of I-10 West. They took down things on their expansions of I-45, US 59, building the Westpark Toll Road, building US 90.... If you look at Google Maps there is plenty of land for a northern arc around Hwy 20 with minimal acquisitions of structures. But like you said, the residents fight it. The politicians like Perdue either don't believe there are sufficient benefits or simply go with the flow. MARTA wanted to extend the proposed Emory line down CSX RR to near the East Lake Transit Station as they had been proposing for 40 years, but immediately dropped it once neighborhood opposition cropped up (not that I think that was a particularly good place to put it). In Texas they are willing to condemn property for a greater good. Here its almost anathema whether it be roads or transit. The reality is that Atlanta is significantly less dense than Houston or Dallas, but Houston & Dallas figure out ways to do the road projects. Atlanta chooses not to. That's one of the Can't do attitudes that exists in Atlanta. You may agree with those choices, but its not anything fixed that Atlanta has no control over.
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