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Old 09-04-2011, 11:11 AM
 
15,007 posts, read 9,783,919 times
Reputation: 3585

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Why you felt this intense desire to turn into internet-Voltron on me and beat me down with all this extra stuff, I don't know. I'm on your side in this debate...just in case you haven't gotten the memo by now.
Just keeping it real, Snake.

You know how it is on these forums. Whenever somebody says there's a problem with a nightclub you typically get folks hollering that it's like the demise of the "party scene" in Buckhead all over again. You know the refrain -- it's all a wild overreaction, NIMBYs should move to the suburbs, noisy nightclubs are a fact of life so get used to it, people in New York have clubs right outside their window, etc., etc.

Interestingly, it's not the people who actually live in these neighborhoods who are raising those objections. But I guess that's par for the course.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:39 PM
 
15,007 posts, read 9,783,919 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
Regardless of what you call it, it's the boisterous crowd late into the night that is the concern. It could be a church and that wouldn't change things.
Quite so.

And comparisons to club life in New York are, frankly, ridiculous. Nobody moves to a comfy little bungalow style neighborhood like Kirkwood and expects New York City. Folks move to Kirkwood because they want, well, a comfy bungalow style neighborhood.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,825 posts, read 2,389,369 times
Reputation: 1498
True dat.

Except in my case I wasn't arguing that there was an overreaction on the part of the Kirkwood folks.... I was arguing that playing the race card doesn't work when it comes to fighting to keep nightclubs in certain areas. Reread my response again along with every other response I posted on this thread related to this sub-topic and you would see that.

So your response to me with that link to the BMF and stuff was like waaay off by a longshot...especially since I am of the same agreement with you that the Kirkwood folks are justified in their disagreement with the Pub's club format change. That response of yours was more suited for someone else of the opposite opinion.

It's never a good thing to lead people to the belief that you are opening a business fto serve one type of customer and then do the switcheroo without getting inputs from the surrounding neighborhood. That's not being a good neighbor and it's unfair to those who invested their heart & soul into making a home their own. I truly feel that way, and I would think that the rare occasion of me agreeing with you on an issue would be cause for a celebration, not an occasion for taking me to the proverbial woodshed.

You know, this is the first time on city-data that someone actually turned my agreeing with them into a disgreement. It's like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory or somethin'.

Strange...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Just keeping it real, Snake.

You know how it is on these forums. Whenever somebody says there's a problem with a nightclub you typically get folks hollering that it's like the demise of the "party scene" in Buckhead all over again. You know the refrain -- it's all a wild overreaction, NIMBYs should move to the suburbs, noisy nightclubs are a fact of life so get used to it, people in New York have clubs right outside their window, etc., etc.

Interestingly, it's not the people who actually live in these neighborhoods who are raising those objections. But I guess that's par for the course.

Last edited by AcidSnake; 09-04-2011 at 03:37 PM..
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:20 PM
 
15,007 posts, read 9,783,919 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
True dat.

Except in my case I wasn't arguing that there was an overreaction on the part of the Kirkwood folks.... I was arguing that playing the race card doesn't work when it comes to fighting to keep nightclubs in certain areas. Reread my response again along with every other response I posted on this thread related to this sub-topic and you would see that.

So your response to me with that link to the BMF and stuff was like waaay off by a longshot...especially since I am of the same agreement with you that the Kirkwood folks are justified in their disagreement with the Pub's club format change. That response of yours was more suited for someone else of the opposite opinion.
I know. I appended my response to your post but it was actually others who were making the Buckhead argument. My bad if it seemed like I was disagreeing with you.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:32 PM
 
449 posts, read 579,011 times
Reputation: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumboula View Post
With regard to Kirkwood, that statement is not true. "Gentrifiers" have been instrumental in the improvement of the neighborhood schools from pressuring APS to get rid of a terrible principal at the elementary school in the mid-2000s, to spearheading efforts to have a Confucius Institute in the middle school, to fighting for Kirkwood kids to be zoned into Grady instead of Maynard Jackson (then Southside) when the local high school (Crim) was turned into a district-wide open campus school by APS. The same thing can be said about the involvement of "gentrifiers" in improving neighborhood parks and the recreation center. There are a lot of problems with gentrification, but gentrification can be a good thing when those with more disposable income and political capital put those resources toward community amenities that everyone uses.
Ok, if these points are true, you have a point and I change my stance on gentrification in Kirkwood.

It's just that usually, gentrification is done to drive a certain demographic out with no cares about the current residents or school system.

Maybe I was misinformed about Kirkwood gentrification
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:09 AM
 
218 posts, read 309,530 times
Reputation: 138
Gentrification is a tricky term; simply defined, it describes the process whereby one class replaces another, presumably lower, class while at the same time investing in the physical building stock. However, this process can appear sinister (as ATLIIDMV suggests) when it is engineered by a municipality or large development corporation - effectively forcing the existing population out in favor of economic gain (though it is not gentrification where they build new construction, that is just bad development practices).

When the process is natural, it is actually very beneficial to a neighborhood and looks something like this (census data and research backed evidence): The existing population of a "desirable" neighborhood with "good" housing stock ages and leaves the neighborhood either for a suburban life or to live with family that has moved away (or for a number of other reasons), while a new population begins to move in as they recognize the value (not always economic) of living in that neighborhood (better commute, houses with character, etc.).

The reinvestment into the neighborhood provides a better quality of life for existing residents who are often protected by local tax code from increases in their property taxes (the best of both worlds). When they eventually do sell, they often make a substantial profit. The complaints are often that the children/grandchildren of the previous residents can no longer afford to move back in if they so desired, that renters are forced out due to increases in rent, and that the neighborhood looses is 'character' - These facts cannot be denied. However, the benefits include: reinvestment, increased levels of home ownership, improved public services, increased diversity (both racial and economic), improved commercial activities, renovation of vacant and abandoned properties, adaptive use of “white elephant” structures, increased property tax, sales tax, and income tax revenues, neighborhood jobs, property value appreciation, and economic integration.

In Kirkwood, the process appears to be natural; high vacancy rates and an aging population have/are given/ing way to lower vacancy rates, higher home-ownership rates, improved services and amenities, and a reinvestment into the community.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:18 PM
 
218 posts, read 309,530 times
Reputation: 138
New twist in the Kirkwood Bar and Grill saga.

I believe the person responsible for the graffiti should be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law. I think the Gwinnett PD should make an example out of this perpetrator and invest some extra detective effort into this case. People who incite racial violence, fear-mongering, and intolerance should be punished, publically and thoroughly...

...it's just an added bonus that the responsible person is most likely David Johnson.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:00 PM
 
864 posts, read 400,304 times
Reputation: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwlawrence View Post
New twist in the Kirkwood Bar and Grill saga.

I believe the person responsible for the graffiti should be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law. I think the Gwinnett PD should make an example out of this perpetrator and invest some extra detective effort into this case. People who incite racial violence, fear-mongering, and intolerance should be punished, publically and thoroughly...

...it's just an added bonus that the responsible person is most likely David Johnson.
I'd like to have Tigers84 and Northwinds very enlightened opinion on this. I trust they can shed some fair and balance light on this issue.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:12 AM
 
4,375 posts, read 3,943,554 times
Reputation: 2283
What a bunch of crybabies.

If you bought a little bungalow and someone bought an empty house right next door and turned it into a club, you'd have a right to be angry.

If you buy a condo in a mixed use development that has a ton of retail space below it, you have to know it may be turned into a bar or club. If you don't want it to be, then make sure no occupants are able to be granted a liquor license!

These people thought they were getting a Taco Mac? Well, I hate to tell them, but if they got a Taco Mac, there would be people arriving at 10pm, standing outside smoking and talking loudly, and staying until 2am. In fact, it's Taco Mac policy that the stores are required to stay open until 1:30a or 2a (depending on the individual location) and they are not allowed to close early, even if there is nobody there.

If you have a condo in a mixed use space, it's because you have a desire to be in the middle of everything. You knew a bar might open up. So it's a club, big deal, you're complaining about the same thing. If the place blares its music loudly outside, then call the police and file a noise complaint. If people are fighting outside, call the police. But you can't just say, "Oh, we thought it was going to attract a Taco Mac kind of crowd, but it looks like it's attracting a different type of demographic. We better shut it down!" If there are problems, just keep calling the police. Eventually the owner will get sick of it and keep the customers in check, but you can't take away the guy's livelihood after he made a significant investment in your building.

I get so sick of this mentality. It happened in Buckhead. Buckhead actually made special provisions for bars and clubs to attract them. Before they came, there was a rule in Buckhead that you had to provide a certain number of parking spaces for businesses, but they waived it so they could bring in a party district. They brought it in on purpose. And it was wildly successful. Then it got rowdy, so instead of controlling it, they just said we better kill it. I lived in Buckhead during that entire time, and the situation could have easily been controlled by police. By the end of Bukchead's life, the police presence was absolutely abysmal. There were 12 police officers assigned to patrol all of Buckhead Village. Twelve. In a place that probably had over 10,000 revellers on any weekend night. That's pathetic. Are you going to argue that Buckhead simply didn't have the money to afford more police? I agree that the nasty element that came in had to go, but they could have been driven out with a strong police presence. Most troublemakers don't like hanging out where there are a lot of police.

So what happened? The scene moved to Midtown. And then what? Fancy condos went up there and people who wanted to be a part of it all moved in. Then they said, "We don't want those seedy clubs here anymore!" and shut them down. I know it's hard to open any kind of club in Atlanta without nasty people invading it at some point, but there are ways to control that (dress codes, security, police, high cover charges, even the style of music you play). The point is, if you move to an urban part of the city, especially in a development specifically designed for mixed use, you can't all of a sudden say I want this part of the urban experience, but not that part. Well, you've got to take the bad with the good. It's just like moving to the suburbs. You can't move to Johns Creek and then whine about your commute. You knew that was the price to pay for living there.

So get over yourself, Kirkwood. You're in the city, more or less. Sometimes you'll get a business or two you're not that happy with. If they break the law, call the police. If you don't want any bars, don't issue liquor licenses. But you can't say we want this type of bar but not that type and just willy nilly close some guy down who played by the rules. You live where Ann serves up her ghetto burgers, so that should have given you a clue when you moved into town.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:55 AM
 
218 posts, read 309,530 times
Reputation: 138
^^^

I swear, some people just don't bother reading before they post.

What the above post states is all fine and good but misses the point here: David Johnson legally committed to operating a certain type of business with certain restrictions - that was how he was able to get into that space - it is because he violated those laws and covenants that the neighborhood is upset.

This is not like someone living on Memorial complaining about a gas station, this is not like Buckhead, this is not about race, this is not about being a crybaby, this is not about gentrification, this is not about whatever issue you want it to be about. THIS IS ABOUT AN OUT-OF-TOWN BUSINESS PERSON BREAKING THE LAW AND A COMMUNITY THAT WILL NOT STAND FOR IT [PERIOD].
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