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Old 10-23-2011, 08:29 PM
 
14,856 posts, read 9,572,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
Wow, little communists without any cohesive plan. They simply hate free markets.
There was a recent survey which showed that 42% of Americans believe Karl Marx's statement about "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is in the Bill of Rights.


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Old 10-23-2011, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
714 posts, read 358,601 times
Reputation: 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
There was a recent survey which showed that 42% of Americans believe Karl Marx's statement about "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is in the Bill of Rights.


Meaning what exactly? That Americans WANT communism.m. That some Americans are stupid? Both?
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,703 posts, read 9,912,097 times
Reputation: 3238
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers84 View Post
Meaning what exactly? That Americans WANT communism.m. That some Americans are stupid? Both?
I think some do. If you listen to not only many of the occupy "protesters" but also some politicians, if they received all the things they are asking for as far as breaking up banks, getting a taxpayer paid college education, and putting Wall St execs in jail, they would still not be happy.

It has become popular and accepted today to simply feel entitled to what other people have. Many people are envious or feel jealous, and they simply feel that they have a right to take what others have in order to give it to them and those they feel deserve it more. You can call it communism, socialism, populism, liberalism, progressiveness, or whatever name you want to give it. To me it, it's anti-American and wrong.

We as a society are quickly moving away from the principles upon which this country was founded. We are no longer a country where people want to become rich and work hard to try to achieve that goal. We are becoming a country where people feel entitled and expect the government to give them stuff, and in order to pay for it, they feel entitled to take from those who they envy.

And yes...I do think some Americans are stupid. More are naive and ignorant, but some are just plain stupid and lazy (on all sides of the spectrum).
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:32 PM
 
1,040 posts, read 821,623 times
Reputation: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers84 View Post
yeesh
You make it really hard to quote your post when you answer within a quote...but here we go again:

Quote:
You are the one inferring "lazy". Show me where Ive said it. Its not about lazy. Its about back work versus brain work. The folks doing the brain work get paid more. Do you think a neurosurgeon couldnt become a damn good plumber if he started plumbing at 19? Do you think a plumber could be a neurogsurgeon?
Did you even read what I typed? Seriously? I said myself that the working man is NOT trying to push to get paid like the neurosurgeon. I didn't even imply that they should be. yeesh

Quote:
Define "Livable" hoss. SPECIFICALLY. And you do realize that there are implications to paying McDonald French Fry folk $50k a year. Like suddenly very few can afford to eat at McDonalds, and/or out of control inflation. You should really get some more schooling before you start "demanding" silliness.
My idea of a livable wage is that someone who works an honest, full-time job
can afford a decent place to live, a reliable car, a few luxuries, maybe a basic vacation each year, and be able to afford health insurance. I am not suggesting that someone who is a part-time fry cook at McBurgerHut be able to drive a Bentley to his docked yacht where he and his bevy of personal strippers go on a moonlit cruise to his mansion in St. Maarten. Someone that works full time at 25% over minimum wage will make $18,850 per year if they never take a working day off. I'm sorry if you don't believe so, but that is a crap wage, and that's 25% over minimum.

And I'm even sorrier if you believe that worker wages should actually stay stagnant or even decline as profits and payouts to executives skyrocket. There is no reason that a higher wage for employees should cause massive inflation or drastically raise prices if a company is raking in record profits. The money is there, it's just going to people other than workers.

Let's use your McDonald's as an example, why don't we? In January of 2010, they had 400,000 employees, so let's pretend it's 425,000 now. Even if every one of those employees was a full-time fry cook (not even close) and worked 52 weeks a year (not even close), a $1/hr pay increase ($2080 per employee...a nice raise) would cost the company $884million, or about 17% of their current profits (3.5% of revenue). Oh, and the average cost to the consumer per visit would have to rise just 3.8 cents in order to not impact profits. That's not a major implication, and most companies don't have near that many employees. If I had to pay 50 cents more, knowing that workers were being paid right, I would absolutely support that.

The problem is that we now value windfall profits and shareholder pressure over anything else.

I'm not suggesting that a part-time fry cook make $50k, but I am ssaying that anyone who works a full time job should make at the very least $25,000, probably more like $30,000. And I'm kind of sick of these companies who keep multiple people part time in the same position solely so they don't have to pay benefits to anyone. While that does "create more jobs", I don't think that's the way to go about it.

Quote:
Tell me how Union thuggery has helped the american automobile cos. How many times has Chrysler been bailed out? Why do all the new automobile factories set up down south? Oh, I dont know, because there arent freakin Unions breathing down their neck? Delta Air Lines employees are happy to be non-unionized, if only the former Northwest thugs would let them.
Yet again, I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote. Not surprising, really. I said that I did NOT support the types of unions who support bad workers, ask for ridiculous concessions, or use thuggery. Take, for example, a musicians union I know about. They asked for a whopping 100% raise on their contract for a show. 100%!! They were fired instead, as they should have been. I don't support that crap, and as it turns out...neither did the musicians. Whoever they had negotiating for them pulled that out of his ass. They have since been rehired, and are paid more than before, although nowhere near 100% more. There are bad seeds everywhere.

Quote:
In the real world of white collar, I approach a company about a job. They decide to hire me and make me an offer. I can take it or leave it. After a while they can raise my pay, or not. I am free to stay or go look elsewhere for higher wages. Tell me, what in god's name is wrong with that approach? Do you need the big union meanies to fight big bad companies on your behalf? Good god, man up and take responsibility for your work skills.
I'm going to assume that the last sentence wasn't meant at me but in general. Otherwise, we have some talking to do.

The white collar approach is fine when you are in a position that justifies it. The typical white collar worker has direct lines to air his grievances or to have a situation dealt with, and more than likely already works in normal, fair work environment. Factory worker #364 doesn't usually have any clout whatsoever to be heard. I know, I know...factory worker #364 should just shut up and do his job or quit, whether or not he feels that conditions are unsafe, because he isn't worth anything anyway.

For instance, when I work under my union (which is about 10% of the time), it's for specific-project calls, so I don't have any pull with the employer. In a recent non-union job in this same field, a friend of mine went to his first day at a new job. He was told it was long hours, but he got a surprise: 14 hours a day with only a single half-hour lunch break. There was no other break allowed in that time. He can go and try to fight it, but nothing would happen (obviously the other people there accept it, although he did say most of them appeared and vocalized their complete disdain for the job). He quit the next day, as he should have.

But that is the kind of thing a workers' union could protect against...making sure that workers are provided proper work breaks. It's not all about screwing the man and taking all the money. My union's basic rules are a 4-hour minimum, 15-minute breaks every 2-3 hours, and meal breaks every 5-6 hours, overtime after 8 hours or at certain times of day, and payment into a health and retirement fund, things like that. I can actually work in the same building, for the same people, not under the union contract, for other gigs. If I show up and it turns out to be only a half hour call, their policy allows them to pay me $7.50 and send me on my way. That's just crap, which is why I won't work there if not under contract. No single person fighting would ever fix that.

Our union doesn't have secret meetings saying "How can we force Company A to double our pay?" Most of our meetings are "How can we work with Company A to provide what they need to get their job done?" or "This guy wants to join...does everyone think he's good enough to add?"

Quote:
Your narrative is wrong. A corporation has many consitituencies. Employees, customers, suppliers, financers and owners (shareholders). ALL are due their fair share. Unions care about one thing only: Sucking the most money possible out of the company, the rest can be damned.
Bolded: so what is the fair share?

First of all, you seem to think that ALL unions are bands of evil people looking to scam their employers out of every dollar possible. I know that's what you've been told and it may be all you know, but it is so far from the truth, it's not even funny. A union's purpose is for workers to band together to protect not just their wages, but more so their safety and welfare. Many of them also provide cheaper group health insurance coverage to their employees when the employers themselves do not. God, that is awful!

Now, I will use my own misinformed definition of corporations. They care about only one thing: Sucking the most money possible out of others using underhanded techniques and monopolistic pressure, while paying the lowest wages and as few benefits as they possibly can while rewarding their selves spectacularly. Obviously, that's not true of most corporations. Just as your definition of unions is true about only a very few of them.

Quote:
If unions are so f*ing good hearted and know how things should be, why dont UNIONS start and run their own companies? Come on, who needs those worthless overpaid white collar, executives, CEOs, shareholders, etc? Instead of telling us how things should be, why not SHOW US. There is nothing stopping Unions from taking control of a company from top to bottom. Unless unions are really just parasites, who cant do a thing without a teat to suck on or a host body to suck the blood out of...
Dude, did a union thug steal your girlfriend or something? What's with the seething animosity?

Unions are groups of workers. Who said anything about them knowing how to, or wanting to, take over and run a company?? I'm not even sure where you come up with this stuff. They are there to protect wages, safety, and welfare of their members...NOT to decide how to do corporate mergers or whether project X should be a go. A good union employs people who are there to HELP a company and works with that companies so everyone's interests are met. A bad union uses strong-arm tactics to bully companies.

Unfortunately, you can only see the bad ones. And you also can't seem to understand that I am supporting the idea of unions, not union thuggery.

And to go further, unions would have never existed if companies were treating employees fairly. So I guess they bit themselves in the ass thinking that they could treat workers as expendable chuff. Having an abundance of other labor ready to go doesn't mean that a company should be able to get away with treating its workforce like vermin.

Quote:
Pardon me a sec why I shed some tears for the NBA Players Union. Those guys are treated like f*ing slaves by the owners/slave masters. Honestly, anyone that can consistenty make a 25 ft jump shot deserves millions because you know, where in the world be without him? Here is an idea: Increase your credibility that overpaid sports stars and movie actors get reduced pay so that the "average joe" can actually afford to go to game, even in a box seat or the first row. Go on, show us all how you demand "fairness" regardless of who has to upchuck their egregiously high incomes.
Can you retype the above in English? I have no idea what you just said. Are you suggesting that I support some sports star getting paid $20 million just because he's in a union??? Really? If so, you are so far off base you'll be bumping your head on the space station soon.

I don't support ANYONE making $20 million a year (or a whopping $32 million a year for A-Rod...f'ing stupid, if you ask me), whether they are an actor, sports star, CEO, owner, hedge fund manager...whatever. I don't think anyone deserves that kind of cash. No one is THAT important. No one. I don't care if you ran a company like Steve Jobs did with Apple to become the most successful tech company of all time. If a company can afford to pay a CEO $20 million a year (and even give them massive golden parachutes even when they fail), they have no room to ***** and whine about their employees (even union employees) costing too much.

I mean, didn't I say somewhere that I was unhappy that people got paid so highly while the "Average Joe" doesn't get paid enough to do most anything? Hmmm...

You don't have to agree with my side, and I don't expect you to. But you're not going to get me to believe that it's all been the workers' and unions' faults that the economy has tanked. It's a combination government and business being in bed with each other and business using tax loopholes to avoid paying taxes, and taking advantage of monetary policies to hoard as much cash as they possibly can, not letting it flow back into the economy through jobs or raised wages, and shipping millions of jobs out of the country due to cheap labor.

By the way...I'm not fighting for myself here. I make quite a good living doing what I do (for now). So this is not a "woe is me" argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
It has become popular and accepted today to simply feel entitled to what other people have. Many people are envious or feel jealous, and they simply feel that they have a right to take what others have in order to give it to them and those they feel deserve it more. You can call it communism, socialism, populism, liberalism, progressiveness, or whatever name you want to give it. To me it, it's anti-American and wrong.

We as a society are quickly moving away from the principles upon which this country was founded. We are no longer a country where people want to become rich and work hard to try to achieve that goal. We are becoming a country where people feel entitled and expect the government to give them stuff, and in order to pay for it, they feel entitled to take from those who they envy.
Yet again, not at all what the OWS movement is about, but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Yes, there are some stupid ones out there calling for beheadings and stealing and whatever...that's not it.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:05 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,803 posts, read 2,357,351 times
Reputation: 1460
Politics in this country have grown to be so unbelievably cartoonish in the last 30 years. The stuff that folks on here say comes straight out of Fox News and other tabloid-y media outlets.

There are times when it's hard to conversate about anything on here while trying to keep a straight-face.

Last edited by AcidSnake; 10-24-2011 at 06:08 AM..
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:08 AM
 
Location: West Seattle, WA
12,829 posts, read 19,342,902 times
Reputation: 5712
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Politics in this country have grown to be so unbelievably cartoonish in the last 30 years. The stuff that folks on here say comes straight out of Fox News and other tabloid-y media outlets.

There are times when it's hard to conversate about anything on here while trying to keep a straight-face.
The word is converse. There is no such word as conversate.
And I totally agree about the 'straight face' comment.

Signed,
Ignorant Fox News Viewer.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,803 posts, read 2,357,351 times
Reputation: 1460
Oh come now, don't be like that. I'm just yankin' y'alls chains, is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
The word is converse. There is no such word as conversate.
And I totally agree about the 'straight face' comment.

Signed,
Ignorant Fox News Viewer.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,703 posts, read 9,912,097 times
Reputation: 3238
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
Yet again, not at all what the OWS movement is about, but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Yes, there are some stupid ones out there calling for beheadings and stealing and whatever...that's not it.
Look...I said "SOME" people, not all. I also have listened and read quite a bit, and if you can actually find someone who can articulate what they believe, you will hear what I stated from some of the people taking part. You also have to look at the groups sponsoring the protests and their underlying agenda.

There are a large percentage of participants who talk about nebulous and abstract concepts such as "corporate greed" and "the rich" and frankly, many of them have no clue about economics or business or any of the details. SOME of them are naive kids who hear talking points that sounds good to them. SOME of them are just devout communists and others who subscribe to the political belief that private ownership of capital and wealth is evil.

I would love a free education (which you can actually get in GA via HOPE) and free this and free that. Sounds great to me too, but who is going to pay for it?
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
9,913 posts, read 14,483,328 times
Reputation: 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
Wow, little communists without any cohesive plan. They simply hate free markets.
The US has never been a free market.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:16 PM
 
14,856 posts, read 9,572,754 times
Reputation: 3537
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers84 View Post
Meaning what exactly? That Americans WANT communism.m. That some Americans are stupid? Both?
Both.

I've even heard people who call themselves conservatives say they favor the "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" plan. That's just American freedom, one guy told me, and he couldn't figure out why Obama and Pelosi were were so determined to take it away from him.

It's a catchy slogan and many people don't get beyond that in their political analysis.

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