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Old 10-10-2011, 10:12 AM
Box
 
382 posts, read 537,269 times
Reputation: 232

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. Many academics do understand and teach business and economics correctly, but there are many academics who are far left in their own beliefs and taint what they teach. I lived outside Boston for 15 years and had my fill of the ex-hippie and neo-lib PC professor types at area colleges. Harvard is a great example.

Are you assuming that these people aren't far left because their economic/business experience has brought them to such a point?

Um...OK. So their motto is "I can't tell you what I'm protesting about, but I know it when I see it". Got it. Makes sense to me.
Most people know why they're protesting (corporate greed, the eroding away of the so called American dream, etc) they just dont know what to do about it.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:18 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,618,902 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas1 View Post
As for being upset that they don't. What are they going to pay it with?? Their mountains of cash they have laying around?? If you don't have any money to pay taxes because you aren't paid enough in you job to do so, what can you do? In 2007, 20% of the country held a whopping 93% of financial wealth. That bottom 47% you are upset about? They have NOTHING. If every one of them paid 15% of their earnings in federal income tax, it would probably barely eclipse one of the riches' write-offs. It's a messed up system. If you want people at the bottom to pay their "fair share", pay them enough to do so. Otherwise, relish in the system that you have created and support.
Perhaps they should do something to get that wealth. I am. Whatever they are doing isn't working, so perhaps they should take that extra class/training/certificate/etc to try to work up the totem pole. That is the American way. There is opportunity, but people are getting lazy and expect the American dream handed to them. It is pathetic.

I want them to pay something to the federal government. Make it $10, I don't care, but they need to contribute something to the Federal government that spends so much money on them.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Lilburn
446 posts, read 1,450,316 times
Reputation: 590
[quote=gtcorndog;21223156]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAB6120 View Post

Okay. They pay nothing to the federal government yet get handout after handout in return. You are right, they do sales tax on their cell phone and cable bills.
Ok, I consider myself a part of the working poor-last year I made $45k for a family of 3-I paid no federal income tax, after getting a refund taking all allowed deductions. Can you please tell me where the handouts are because I certainly didn't get any. I own my home(paid off) pay a little over 2k in taxes,we have 2 cars which I pay birthday taxes on. Everything I purchase, I pay taxes on-from internet, to cell phone, food, clothes, gas etc. Funny thing is I know alot of families like mine who do the same.

I keep hearing work harder from people like you-who says I am not working hard-I came to this country at 11yrs old with only a suitcase of clothes-stayed with family until my mom could find a place of our own-lived in the worst ghettos in Brooklyn-been working since I was 15 yrs old. Never been on welfare or any other government assistance-took me 4 yrs to get an associate degree because I worked fulltime while going to school partime. My home is paid off at age 35 and except for one car loan of $8k, I owe nothing else to anyone. I will probably never be rich-and I am ok with that-but for people to say I am lazy and leeching on society because I pay no federal income tax is just not true.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:48 AM
 
3,209 posts, read 4,523,358 times
Reputation: 1732
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
Perhaps they should do something to get that wealth. I am. Whatever they are doing isn't working, so perhaps they should take that extra class/training/certificate/etc to try to work up the totem pole. That is the American way. There is opportunity, but people are getting lazy and expect the American dream handed to them. It is pathetic.

I want them to pay something to the federal government. Make it $10, I don't care, but they need to contribute something to the Federal government that spends so much money on them.
They pay taxes on marginal income, they just get credits and subsidies in amounts that are greater than taxes paid. Net is therefore negative.

The right is pissed off about absolutely the wrong thing here. Yes, poor people tend to be net subsidized by the government: big deal, they are poor and living crappy lives by and large and the amount of money they cost is actually quite modest in the grand scheme.

The thing the right should be pissed about is that as income increases, you get hit by a double whammy of (1) increasing marginal tax rates and (2) decreasing benefits/credits at all levels of government. This leads to absurdly high effective marginal tax rates as people go from ~$20k/year income to ~$50k/year income, especially if you have kids--effective marginal rates can push 70% in some situations (in rare situations it can theoretically be 100%). This is far, far more of a problem than people who "don't pay taxes", as this actually distorts economic behavior of millions of people for the worse.

A much smarter plan that would drastically decrease economic distortion is to simply subsidize everyone, then tax the money away via higher marginal rates from those who don't need it (after all, getting a $5k check then paying $25k in taxes is no different than simply paying $20k in taxes). This also means tax increases would affect everyone.


Of course, conservatives aren't clamoring for this. They seem more interested in keeping tax breaks for the rich in place, and jabbering on with the "50% pay no taxes zomg!" meme.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Box
 
382 posts, read 537,269 times
Reputation: 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
Perhaps they should do something to get that wealth. I am. Whatever they are doing isn't working, so perhaps they should take that extra class/training/certificate/etc to try to work up the totem pole. That is the American way. There is opportunity, but people are getting lazy and expect the American dream handed to them. It is pathetic.

I want them to pay something to the federal government. Make it $10, I don't care, but they need to contribute something to the Federal government that spends so much money on them.
Maybe they should keep going to school to get a degree until they are 500k in debt?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:50 AM
 
Location: International Spacestation
5,207 posts, read 5,984,566 times
Reputation: 1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22 View Post
Looks like a sister movement to Occupy wall Street is forming:

Occupy Atlanta

Any thoughts about this? Do you think the movement should just focus on Wall Street?
These people are really wasting their time and effort. Only violence will really send the message. Violence always works.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: International Spacestation
5,207 posts, read 5,984,566 times
Reputation: 1415
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkwoodhipster View Post
Would you PEOPLE please stop with the communist rants?? We are not trying to kill anyone or start a revolution. We just want to OVERHAUL the government so the proper SYSTEMS are in place to PUNISH these fat cats who caused this whole mess and PREVENT them from ever doing it again! They need to PAY their FAIR SHARE, and if they WONT, then they are going to have to be FORCED to!!!
Man lol this sounds like something out of StarWars.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,552,036 times
Reputation: 3484
[quote=LAB6120;21222920]
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
I hate when people say the poor pay no taxes-they pay no federal income taxes, but they pay state and local taxes including real estate, auto, food, clothes, gas, medicare, basically everything they purchase, they pay taxes on.
I always (and you can search my posts) make the qualifying statement that 50% pay no federal income taxes. Still, even when you look at the other taxes mentioned, the lower your income, the less state tax you pay as well.

For me, the biggest slap in the face is the bald face lie that our President and others keep repeating, that somehow "the rich" pay less taxes than the "middle class" and that "the rich" do not pay "their fair share" or some other rhetoric to that effect. As the AP (certainly not a conservative media outlet) recently reported in a fact check, that's not the case.

In fact, when you look at the numbers, not only do higher income wage earners pay more in FICA and Medicare, but they pay the most in federal income tax, in state income tax, and generally they pay capital gains taxes and other taxes as well. If they run a business, many times they pay business related license fees and other taxes in addition to what they pay personally. When they pay taxes on dividends, that money is actually taxes twice, once at the business as income, and again at the personal level as dividend income or capital gains.

You can make all the excuses and rationalizations that you want, but the only truly fair tax system is a flat income tax or replacing that with a national sales tax. That way, the more you make or spend, the more the gov't takes. No deductions or exemptions. The Democrats in Congress and the President will never go along with it, because it is based around an assumption that my income and your income are equal in importance and should be taxed at the same rate.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:04 PM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,618,902 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Box View Post
Maybe they should keep going to school to get a degree until they are 500k in debt?
I got my degree for free. But then again, I worked hard. I didn't go to small private school to major in Art History. Don't like debt? Join the Army/Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard for 4 years and get out and use the 9/11 GI Bill for free tuition, books and a housing stipend. You can get a job while in school and take out minimal loans by going to a state school. College is not nearly as expensive as people make it sound. If it is that expensive, you are doing it wrong. Hell, HOPE, pays most tuition anyways. I had friends who went $50,000 in debt to get their degrees, but they got degrees in Electrical and Computer Engineering. 3 years later, they had their debts paid off because they were making $70,000+ starting out of college. Maybe you don't go $50,000 in debt if you want to be a social worker or elementary school teacher. If you can't pay the money back because your career options are limited, perhaps you go with the cheapest route available, rather than your small dream school with the well manicured 18th century campus.

Or... you can complain about college costing too much.
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:05 PM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,945,027 times
Reputation: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
Perhaps they should do something to get that wealth. I am. Whatever they are doing isn't working, so perhaps they should take that extra class/training/certificate/etc to try to work up the totem pole. That is the American way. There is opportunity, but people are getting lazy and expect the American dream handed to them. It is pathetic.

I want them to pay something to the federal government. Make it $10, I don't care, but they need to contribute something to the Federal government that spends so much money on them.
Technically they do. There are federal gas taxes of $0.184/gallon. If they drive the GA avg of 15k/annually in a car that gets 30mpg, they pay $92/yr. If you're a W2 worker like me, you'll also know federal income tax is just one line of the many taxes you pay. FICA is flat and also hits the 1st 107k only (finally became a regressive tax for me this year =P ).

The lowly 47% are also stuck w/ every state tax we all get hit by. Property taxes are passed on to renters and the landlord is the one that gets any deductions for mortgage interest/depreciation for the property. My mortgage deduction + property tax means I shaved $200/mon via deductions by purchasing a place similar to where I was renting. That doesn't include the sweet 8k I got by updating my '08 taxes when I still qualified for the 1st time homebuyer credit.

A generation ago a single income could buy a home/raise a family, and ship them to college. They didn't need a college degree or dual incomes. Clearly globalization has changed that equation but not everyone is setup to become a high earning professional. Telling everyone to go to college and then subsidizing it w/ student loans is why University of Phoenix et al are creating a generation of worthless online "educated" grads along w/ millions of broke dropouts unwilling to do manual jobs. There are millions of people that would flunk out of any college you put them into and our system simply isn't setup to provide vocations for the 1/2 of people that can't finish college now.

I'm not saying people shouldn't work hard to achieve but the existence of a middle class is what made so much possible in our country and that middle class wasn't college educated. It now takes far more investment to accomplish that same level of income all the while the wealthy have grown exponentially. I'm hardly a barefoot hippie but I can't fathom how difficult it must be to be in the 0-50k range that everyone is vilifying (lot of them are retirees as well) for not paying federal income taxes.
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