What's wrong with Atlantic Station? (Atlanta, Stone Mountain: fit in, theater, floor)

[Nairobi]

Why are the mods never around when these threads go off topic?

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Why are the mods never around when these threads go off topic?

Did you see my last response to you?

[NYbyWAYofGA]

When I was in Atlanta visiting fam for Turkey Day, my best friend and I drove through Atlantic Station. I was impressed with how busy it seemed to be. I told him that the retail portion sorta kinda reminds me of certain parts of downtown Brooklyn along Fulton Street and Flatbush Ave. Ok, I may be exagerating a bit, but it was definitely bustling with pedestrian activity...by Atlanta standards. We saw all kinds of people, but certainly none of the threatening types often discussed here. If they were there, they blended in with the crowds. I certainly didn't see anything wrong. I actually think that Atlantic Station is a step in the right direction. Perhaps there's something wrong with the people questioning and being threatened by the people there instead of Atlantic Station itself.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

Did you see my last response to you?

Yes, I did. I wasn't trying to ig you, but honestly, there were points I didn't care to argue any further.

But to answer your last question of that post, what I was essentially saying to arjay57 is that, yes, I think that smaller, more elaborate developments are the way to go. But hey, they had a lot of land to work with, so maybe they were "desperate" to get rid of it, and in that case, what the city needed trumps what some might have wanted for that area.

I do laugh when I hear people say things like "pedestrian activity in Atlantic Station"...yes, the same kind of pedestrian activity that you will find inside of a mall.

Like you, I feel that a rail station would've made me feel better about it, but that's neither here nor there.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

But to answer your last question of that post, what I was essentially saying to arjay57 is that, yes, I think that smaller, more elaborate developments are the way to go. But hey, they had a lot of land to work with, so maybe they were "desperate" to get rid of it, and in that case, what the city needed trumps what some might have wanted for that area.

While your criticism is legitimate, you also have to be realistic about it. That's just not how the market shapes development anymore. These days, the closest you get is one overarching development who might subdivide the property out to other developers, but overall you get the same thing.

If we had examples of where this was done in other cities, then I'd be right there with you voicing my criticisms. However, the same thing you're saying about Atlantic Station can be (and often is) said about other New Urbanist development across the country. I guess that's why I'm a bit perplexed that your criticism is about Atlantic Station specifically and not New Urbanism or development trends or market forces in general which really has nothing to do with Atlanta.

I'd also venture to say that given the physical constraints of the site, there would have been very little commercial or residential development on that site had the development occurred in a more piecemeal fashion. One thing that I do like about the development is the fact that the residential portion blends in with the existing urban fabric as opposed to turning its back on it which is the case for some other New Urbanist-type developments.

Like you, I feel that a rail station would've made me feel better about it, but that's neither here nor there.

Actually, I think that's very relevant; very much "here" and "there."

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

I do laugh when I hear people say things like "pedestrian activity in Atlantic Station"...yes, the same kind of pedestrian activity that you will find inside of a mall.

Well, by Atlanta standards, there is a good amount of pedestrian activity going on at Atlantic Station and that's a step in the right direction. Hopefully, there will be connecting rail in the not so distant future.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

While your criticism is legitimate, you also have to be realistic about it. That's just not how the market shapes development anymore. These days, the closest you get is one overarching development who might subdivide the property out to other developers, but overall you get the same thing.

If we had examples of where this was done in other cities, then I'd be right there with you voicing my criticisms. However, the same thing you're saying about Atlantic Station can be (and often is) said about other New Urbanist development across the country. I guess that's why I'm a bit perplexed that your criticism is about Atlantic Station specifically and not New Urbanism or development trends or market forces in general which really has nothing to do with Atlanta.

Well, this isn't a brownfield redevelopment, but (at the risk of inciting a city vs. city hooplah) there is Regent Square for Houston, which is a small, new urbanist neighborhood in the works (). That I've heard, there are no big box retailers to speak of. But maybe this isn't what you're talking about.

http://www.regentsq.com/index.swf

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Well, this isn't a brownfield redevelopment, but (at the risk of inciting a city vs. city hooplah) there is Regent Square for Houston, which is a small, new urbanist neighborhood in the works (). That I've heard, there are no big box retailers to speak of. But maybe this isn't what you're talking about.

http://www.regentsq.com/index.swf

That seems to be Houston's version of Atlanta's Glenwood Park. Minus the big boxes, it's still subject to most of the criticisms you lobby at Atlantic Station, most notably the lack of an organic development process. It's one big development built all at one time as opposed to being a commercial/residential district that naturally comes into being over several years or decades as an outgrowth of existing market forces.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

That seems to be Houston's version of Atlanta's Glenwood Park. Minus the big boxes, it's still subject to most of the criticisms you lobby at Atlantic Station, most notably the lack of an organic development process. It's one big development built all at one time as opposed to being a commercial/residential district that naturally comes into being over several years or decades as an outgrowth of existing market forces.

It's not so much about an organic, building-by-building development. If you noticed, my biggest complaint was AS's big box retailers, all around the Millenium Gate aka "the Arche d'IKEA". These are the things that give Atlantic Station that glorified lifestyle center feel. Glenwood Park lacks that. Regent Square will lack that.

GP feels plastic now, because it's new, but over the years it will start to feel more and more like an authentic urbane neighborhood. AS will have its urban aspects, but it will also have an aging Target and IKEA, which they will probably be inclined to bulldoze within the next 20 years. Those types of stores do not have lasting value.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

It's not so much about an organic, building-by-building development. If you noticed, my biggest complaint was AS's big box retailers, all around the Millenium Gate aka "the Arche d'IKEA". These are the things that give Atlantic Station that glorified lifestyle center feel. Glenwood Park lacks that. Regent Square will lack that.

GP feels plastic now, because it's new, but over the years it will start to feel more and more like an authentic urbane neighborhood. AS will have its urban aspects, but it will also have an aging Target and IKEA, which they will probably be inclined to bulldoze within the next 20 years. Those types of stores do not have lasting value.

It didn't seem that your biggest complaint concerning AS were the Target and IKEA; if it was, you could have been specific about that the whole time. You did say in your last post that you think the development should have taken the route of consisting of "smaller, more elaborate" developments, so I thought your major concern was the lack of an organic development process--hence your mention of Glenwood Park feeling "plastic" now (as will Regent Square whenever it gets built).

But honestly, the IKEA and Target really aren't even major focal points of Atlantic Station; as many times as I've been to Atlantic Station (as recently as last Sunday to do some Christmas shopping), I don't think I've ever been inside the Target and I've been to that IKEA once several years ago. The IKEA in particular pretty much functions as a stand-alone big box that extends from the core of Atlantic Station. Because of the location of the IKEA and Target at the periphery of the development, replacing them in 20 years or so won't be a big deal at all and will not affect the overall character of the development, nor will it disturb the existing urban fabric at the commercial and residential heart of the development. So I'll say that your complaints about Target and IKEA have some merit, but I think they carry much less weight in a practical sense then you're making it out to be.