What's wrong with Atlantic Station? (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: motorhome, centers, Lowes)

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I'm not sure I understand the difference between a "lifestyle center" (when it's done like Atlantic Station) and any other shopping district.

Well, lifestyle centers are planned, and as the article states, they usually contain some sort of suburban-oriented conveniences; in AS's case, large amounts of parking space and big box retailers.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Well, lifestyle centers are planned, and as the article states, they usually contain some sort of suburban-oriented conveniences; in AS's case, large amounts of parking space and big box retailers.

Lifestyle centers have copious amounts of surface parking, which is where AS is different. Here are the site plans of several different lifestyle centers:











And again, the site plan for AS:



Secondly, the presence of big box stores in and of themselves doesn't qualify a development as a lifestyle center. Here's a gallery that shows big boxes in genuine urban areas (with a few in New Urbanist developments):

Urban retail - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/paytonc/sets/72157600175214277/ - broken link)

AS isn't 100% New Urbanist, but it's far from being a lifestyle center.

[ATLTJL]

And isn't it just ironic that the Edgewood shopping center that all the hipster urbanites seem to have such massive crushes on in basically nothing but big box retailers in a humongous sea of surface parking.

Yet Atlantic Station with just a couple of big box retailers and pretty much all of its parking hidden underground is so hated.

I just don't get it.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

And isn't it just ironic that the Edgewood shopping center that all the hipster urbanites seem to have such massive crushes on in basically nothing but big box retailers in a humongous sea of surface parking.

Yet Atlantic Station with just a couple of big box retailers and pretty much all of its parking hidden underground is so hated.

I just don't get it.

LOL, right! The Edgewood "retail district" is definitely one to criticize. AS isn't without its faults, but I think it gets a lot of unnecessary flack. It's a BIG step up from this:

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Well, lifestyle centers are planned, and as the article states, they usually contain some sort of suburban-oriented conveniences; in AS's case, large amounts of parking space and big box retailers.

However, unlike typical suburban developments that rely on surface lots, Atlantic Station's parking is in underground decks. With regard to being planned, it's hard to see how that makes "lifestyle" shopping different from other shopping. The planning allows you to set design and transportation features in advance rather than trying to retrofit after the fact. To me that seems smart.

Realistically, when you're trying to revitalize a large, formerly abandoned tract like this, developing with a master plan is the only way to go. If they simply cleared the land and waited for something to happen, we'd be waiting a long time.

In my opinion the Target isn't a death knell to urban development. Personally I'd like to have seen a better facade but it's still not the typical big box store sitting in a sea of surface parking.

Ikea -- well, at least it's outside the main shopping district and isn't surrounded by huge asphalt lots.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by arjay57

However, unlike typical suburban developments that rely on surface lots, Atlantic Station's parking is in underground decks. With regard to being planned, it's hard to see how that makes "lifestyle" shopping different from other shopping. The planning allows you to set design and transportation features in advance rather than trying to retrofit after the fact. To me that seems smart.

Realistically, when you're trying to revitalize a large, formerly abandoned tract like this, developing with a master plan is the only way to go. If they simply cleared the land and waited for something to happen, we'd be waiting a long time.

In my opinion the Target isn't a death knell to urban development. Personally I'd like to have seen a better facade but it's still not the typical big box store sitting in a sea of surface parking.

Ikea -- well, at least it's outside the main shopping district and isn't surrounded by huge asphalt lots.

My thoughts exactly.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

Lifestyle centers have copious amounts of surface parking, which is where AS is different. Here are the site plans of several different lifestyle centers:

It isn't set in stone that a lifestyle center must feature surface parking. Either way, most visitors to Atlantic Station are not driving from another neighborhood and parking in front of the store they're visiting, but they're going to an underground parking lot, getting out of their cars and walking up into the development. Sounds like a mall, to me.

Secondly, the presence of big box stores in and of themselves doesn't qualify a development as a lifestyle center.

Never said it did, but lifestyle centers often do include these stores.

Here's a gallery that shows big boxes in genuine urban areas (with a few in New Urbanist developments):

Urban retail - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/paytonc/sets/72157600175214277/ - broken link)

...and notice how these stores are woven into their already urban setting. Many of these stores appear scaled down to fit into the more urban area, unlike the sprawling stores found in Atlanta.

AS doesn't feature a solid grid where you have nothing but store next to store. You have winding roads, an ample amount of green space, etc. Very suburban oriented.

AS isn't 100% New Urbanist, but it's far from being a lifestyle center.

Glorified lifestyle center. A suburban influenced shopping center with enough urban "fixings" that it does indeed qualify as a new urbanist development. As one of the articles I posted states, it's essentially "the suburbs meet the city".

You're really not letting this go, are you?

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by arjay57

However, unlike typical suburban developments that rely on surface lots, Atlantic Station's parking is in underground decks. With regard to being planned, it's hard to see how that makes "lifestyle" shopping different from other shopping. The planning allows you to set design and transportation features in advance rather than trying to retrofit after the fact. To me that seems smart.

Realistically, when you're trying to revitalize a large, formerly abandoned tract like this, developing with a master plan is the only way to go. If they simply cleared the land and waited for something to happen, we'd be waiting a long time.

In my opinion the Target isn't a death knell to urban development. Personally I'd like to have seen a better facade but it's still not the typical big box store sitting in a sea of surface parking.

Ikea -- well, at least it's outside the main shopping district and isn't surrounded by huge asphalt lots.

Well, for like the third or fourth time, I never said I had anything against planned developments. Mutiny was the one suggesting that I wanted an "organic" block-to-block process, but I never said that.

There's nothing wrong with planned developments, I'm just not fond of the specific plan they had for Atlantic Station.

I'm not trying to force anyone to see things the way I do, regarding the Target and IKEA being there. Y'all don't see them as a problem, but I do.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

...and notice how these stores are woven into their already urban setting. Many of these stores appear scaled down to fit into the more urban area, unlike the sprawling stores found in Atlanta.

AS doesn't feature a solid grid where you have nothing but store next to store. You have winding roads, an ample amount of green space, etc. Very suburban oriented.

Atlantic Station wasn't woven into an existing street grid, since there wasn't one. The idea behind Atlantic Station was to start creating a new urban area, or at least to expand across the freeway gulch. For the most part it succeeds in that. The retail area is in fact set up on a grid, with zero lot line development.

Clearly the current status of AS is not the end of the line, but the hope is that over time it will become more tightly integrated into the community. The surrounding neighborhoods also suffered from decades of disinvestment, and they have a way to go too.

You won't get any argument from me about the lame design of the IKEA store, but I don't think it's fair to judge Atlantic Station by that.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

It isn't set in stone that a lifestyle center must feature surface parking. Either way, most visitors to Atlantic Station are not driving from another neighborhood and parking in front of the store they're visiting, but they're going to an underground parking lot, getting out of their cars and walking up into the development. Sounds like a mall, to me.

AS is not a mall because it has parking associated with it. A mall is an enclosed, climate-controlled, single-use retail structure. That's not what AS is.

Never said it did, but lifestyle centers often do include these stores.

But it's not "set in stone" that a lifestyle center must include these stores. Can't have your cake and eat it too, bruh.

...and notice how these stores are woven into their already urban setting. Many of these stores appear scaled down to fit into the more urban area, unlike the sprawling stores found in Atlanta.

So now you're essentially agreeing with me that big boxes in and of themselves don't "de-urbanize" their surroundings, but that it's all about form and function. I had stated that you had a point about the design of the AS big boxes, but your assertion was that their mere inclusion made AS essentially suburban; now you seem to be changing your tune.

AS doesn't feature a solid grid where you have nothing but store next to store. You have winding roads, an ample amount of green space, etc. Very suburban oriented.

"Winding roads"? You make it sound as if AS is a cookie-cutter subdivision with a bunch of cul-de-sacs. The only road that "winds" is 17th Street as it runs past Millenium Arch and the green space associated with it. And green space is associated with urban districts. Is Midtown now "suburban-oriented" because of Piedmont Park? There are no grass buffers between the commercial buildings or the residential units and the street, which is a primary defining feature of suburbia.

Glorified lifestyle center. A suburban influenced shopping center with enough urban "fixings" that it does indeed qualify as a new urbanist development. As one of the articles I posted states, it's essentially "the suburbs meet the city".

All because of two big boxes (on the fringes) and an underground parking deck. Ok...if that's how you define it, so be it.

You're really not letting this go, are you?

I can only post a response when you do so in kind. I'm not talking to myself here.