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Old 12-22-2011, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
4,907 posts, read 5,381,311 times
Reputation: 3046

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Those malls didn't exist in 1969 when 285 was completed. And if there was an outer ring the sprawl in Atlanta would be horrible. The only thing Atlanta needs to more rail based transit. I agree that suburb-to-suburb transit is needed and that the idea with the top-end-perimeter rail line. It would connect a Gwinnett line at Doraville with MARTA, run along 285 and connect with a Cobb line at Cumberland.
I understand that those malls didn't exist then, that is why the land should have been acquired and the road built then. Absolutely impossible at any point after the 80s to do this, the cost prohibitive not to mention the NIMBYers that would descend like a horde of Zombies. Those points about 10 to 15 miles outside the perimeter have been the focal points of growth outside the perimeter and the reason these suburban malls popped up where they are. Someone should have had the foresight to see this.

Again, the sprawl argument. Have you been to any of these malls and their environs? Sprawl anyway. If they had built the road ahead of the sprawl, moving around Atlanta would be MUCH easier. This to me is proof positive that freeways don't cause sprawl, growth and a booming economy and people moving in from all parts of the country cause sprawl.

To make an argument that a metro that has grown five fold in fifty years and all the development be in a dense cluster ITP is lunacy. One of the reason Atlanta has grown has been the availability of inexpensive land in all directions, no mountains, oceans or other natural obstacles for 360 degrees. One of the few major metro areas where there is no geographical obstacle in any direction. Roads are needed to transverse this area.

Not an argument against rail, but roads need to go within such a built up area.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
822 posts, read 1,040,631 times
Reputation: 723
I invite everyone to define what "sprawl" is, why it's bad, and what's the alternative for accommodating 6 million Metro Atlanta residents.

As I see it, people are moving to the Southeastern U.S. to enjoy a less dense, tree-filled suburban existence that's within easy reach of a metropolitan area, that's a robust jobs center with a robust economy.

By definition, this looser development around an urban core must be labeled as sprawl. And I always thought sprawl was evil only because it funneled too much traffic from cul-de-sacs to limited arterials to a single freeway, which is exactly the problem here.

Therefore, at this stage in Atlanta's development, more roads are the REMEDY to relieving the limited freeways and arterials from ALL CURRENT traffic being dumped onto them.

Once you're 50-60 miles from an urban core, the sprawl argument no longer is plausible, because those utilizing such distant highways wouldn't be traversing the metro area on a daily basis. They'd remain 50 miles away driving locally.

Everyone wants Georgia to continue growing and prosper, so do you want to accommodate 10 million plus people, or is the mention of dreaded "sprawl" so heinous that you'd like for people to actually leave metro Atlanta to make it smaller?
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
4,907 posts, read 5,381,311 times
Reputation: 3046
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I invite everyone to define what "sprawl" is, why it's bad, and what's the alternative for accommodating 6 million Metro Atlanta residents.

As I see it, people are moving to the Southeastern U.S. to enjoy a less dense, tree-filled suburban existence that's within easy reach of a metropolitan area, that's a robust jobs center with a robust economy.

By definition, this looser development around an urban core must be labeled as sprawl. And I always thought sprawl was evil only because it funneled too much traffic from cul-de-sacs to limited arterials to a single freeway, which is exactly the problem here.

Therefore, at this stage in Atlanta's development, more roads are the REMEDY to relieving the limited freeways and arterials from ALL CURRENT traffic being dumped onto them.

Once you're 50-60 miles from an urban core, the sprawl argument no longer is plausible, because those utilizing such distant highways wouldn't be traversing the metro area on a daily basis. They'd remain 50 miles away driving locally.

Everyone wants Georgia to continue growing and prosper, so do you want to accommodate 10 million plus people, or is the mention of dreaded "sprawl" so heinous that you'd like for people to actually leave metro Atlanta to make it smaller?
Since I repped your previous post, can't rep this one. Well said.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
822 posts, read 1,040,631 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Since I repped your previous post, can't rep this one. Well said.
Thank you. Merry Christmas.
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Old 12-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Status: "Speaking gets your voice heard, but think beforehand." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Norcross, GA. (Metro Atlanta)
3,477 posts, read 3,688,775 times
Reputation: 1416
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I invite everyone to define what "sprawl" is, why it's bad, and what's the alternative for accommodating 6 million Metro Atlanta residents.

As I see it, people are moving to the Southeastern U.S. to enjoy a less dense, tree-filled suburban existence that's within easy reach of a metropolitan area, that's a robust jobs center with a robust economy.

By definition, this looser development around an urban core must be labeled as sprawl. And I always thought sprawl was evil only because it funneled too much traffic from cul-de-sacs to limited arterials to a single freeway, which is exactly the problem here.

Therefore, at this stage in Atlanta's development, more roads are the REMEDY to relieving the limited freeways and arterials from ALL CURRENT traffic being dumped onto them.

Once you're 50-60 miles from an urban core, the sprawl argument no longer is plausible, because those utilizing such distant highways wouldn't be traversing the metro area on a daily basis. They'd remain 50 miles away driving locally.

Everyone wants Georgia to continue growing and prosper, so do you want to accommodate 10 million plus people, or is the mention of dreaded "sprawl" so heinous that you'd like for people to actually leave metro Atlanta to make it smaller?
At this point in the game, you're right to say that more roads are needed. To remedy the problem? I'm not so sure I would go that far. Yes, it would help with congestion on 285 to add another loop further out and cut suburb to suburb commute times drastically. Would it solve congestion on all our freeways including 285? Absolutely not. We're still a growing city.
I'm not entirely convinced that the sprawl didn't come from 285 and surrounding freeways either. There is only so much you can develop around those major corridors before you need to go further out to satisfy those people who are trying to get away from the urban lifestyle. So, we build, and build, and build some more.. in low density to satisfy the wants of the people who ultimately don't desire to live in the big city, but want the amenities. So, perhaps that development that took place 10-20 miles OTP may not be DIRECTLY from 285, but it sure as heck is an indirect result of it. Just go to Google maps, click on earth and turn off the labels and see what I'm trying to explain. Denser development can be had in older areas closer to the freeways. Move a bit further away from them and the development becomes less dense to sparse, etc.
A question to ask yourself when you're looking for a place to live. Would I want to be convenient to the highway if I'm commuting to my destination or do I want to be as far from it as possible?

Reeling back in here.. as far as my stance on transit and roads.... yes, I think we need a fair share of roads to accommodate what we've got since we are clearly under served in that area, but I think we need to invest a lot more in our transit, especially suburb to suburb transit. We're much further behind in developing our mass transit system than our roads though, which is a good reason why more funding should go in to transit. Not only that, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, transit will spur more pedestrian friendly, less car dependent development similar to what downtown Decatur became.
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Old 12-24-2011, 01:57 PM
 
3,130 posts, read 3,073,229 times
Reputation: 1534
It has a lot to do with our mentality and again how we develop. We develop in GA out not up b/c land is vast. We developed out b/c gas was cheap. We want to drive, we want the freedom to go where we want when we want and we seem to rather get stuck in traffic than change our mentality and living habits. We still act like Atlanta is Gotham City full of crime and want to live far from yet, yet claim we live in Atlanta.

If people want to live far out, fine, that is their choice. Don't raise taxes and fees for everyone b/c of their choice. More roads only leads to more traffic for crying out loud.
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Old 12-24-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
822 posts, read 1,040,631 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
If people want to live far out, fine, that is their choice. Don't raise taxes and fees for everyone b/c of their choice. More roads only leads to more traffic for crying out loud.
More roads move more people and more goods. A population of X-million will result in X-amount of traffic no matter whether the roads are spread out or double-decker freeways.

Any Georgian who doesn't want to ever pay any taxes to benefit Greater Atlanta should be prohibited from benefiting from its economic engine.

I'll never understand the politics or mentality of this state. In North Carolina, for the past 100 years and currently, the state's main objective is to lift each of its 100 counties out of poverty and into economic prosperity. Every county surrounding NC's metro areas begs the state to build them highways and byways into the economic centers at any cost. In January NC's gas tax will rise to a record 38.9 cents per gallon.

Here in Georgia it seems that the 140 counties outside of Atlanta hate the metro area and don't want to grow or prosper at any cost.

Taxes across the board in Georgia are lower than most other states, let alone the 10 most populous ones.

In the next 10 years all of the surrounding states will have overwhelming stolen the spotlight. When I saw that the minimum wage was still $5.15 or whatever in Georgia I just started laughing.
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Old 12-25-2011, 02:07 AM
 
Location: Acworth
1,350 posts, read 2,587,356 times
Reputation: 436
can i say "i told you so" to all the people so vehemently whining they are such a great idea in all the i85 threads?

gwinnett is a lost county. been lost for a few years now and them tearing the 2 towers was the burial. i am glad cobb and even fulton still have a spine.
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Old 12-25-2011, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Acworth
1,350 posts, read 2,587,356 times
Reputation: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
More roads move more people and more goods. A population of X-million will result in X-amount of traffic no matter whether the roads are spread out or double-decker freeways.

Any Georgian who doesn't want to ever pay any taxes to benefit Greater Atlanta should be prohibited from benefiting from its economic engine.

I'll never understand the politics or mentality of this state. In North Carolina, for the past 100 years and currently, the state's main objective is to lift each of its 100 counties out of poverty and into economic prosperity. Every county surrounding NC's metro areas begs the state to build them highways and byways into the economic centers at any cost. In January NC's gas tax will rise to a record 38.9 cents per gallon.

Here in Georgia it seems that the 140 counties outside of Atlanta hate the metro area and don't want to grow or prosper at any cost.

Taxes across the board in Georgia are lower than most other states, let alone the 10 most populous ones.

In the next 10 years all of the surrounding states will have overwhelming stolen the spotlight. When I saw that the minimum wage was still $5.15 or whatever in Georgia I just started laughing.

No. They beg so they can lure motorists through their podunk areas and ticket them into sustaining their non existent economy.

This is the norm in many places in this country, particularly in WVA (look up summerville) and for ga, look up arcade et al. These places got roads as part of some "save us from poverty project" and in turn turned them into a harassment cash cow. The roads never did anything but allow the very few ambitious locals to leave their no future hometowns faster.

NC is no different. In fact, it's almost worse

Now, are you also laughing that ga is a right to work state? you know what that means right. Wage is irrelevant. I'll pay you 400 an hour and let you go after 10 minutes. Good luck!

minimum wage whether 5 or 7 or 8 all has one thing in common: you will starve on it. you will never get anywhere on it and it will never be high enough to correct the previous 2. that's why it is really irrelevant as to what number it is. be assured, it is not high enough anyhow.

not sure which surrounding states you mean. the only one with any chance is TN. NC is playing with VA up north, SC isnt trying, AL is 50 years behind and FL ends at the orlando city line.......... the rest is empty space. GA is actually very uniformly developed in comparison with many other places. The more i travel the more i come to recognize that.
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
822 posts, read 1,040,631 times
Reputation: 723
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityrover View Post
No. They beg so they can lure motorists through their podunk areas and ticket them into sustaining their non existent economy.

This is the norm in many places in this country, particularly in WVA (look up summerville) and for ga, look up arcade et al. These places got roads as part of some "save us from poverty project" and in turn turned them into a harassment cash cow. The roads never did anything but allow the very few ambitious locals to leave their no future hometowns faster.

NC is no different. In fact, it's almost worse

Now, are you also laughing that ga is a right to work state? you know what that means right. Wage is irrelevant. I'll pay you 400 an hour and let you go after 10 minutes. Good luck!

minimum wage whether 5 or 7 or 8 all has one thing in common: you will starve on it. you will never get anywhere on it and it will never be high enough to correct the previous 2. that's why it is really irrelevant as to what number it is. be assured, it is not high enough anyhow.

not sure which surrounding states you mean. the only one with any chance is TN. NC is playing with VA up north, SC isnt trying, AL is 50 years behind and FL ends at the orlando city line.......... the rest is empty space. GA is actually very uniformly developed in comparison with many other places. The more i travel the more i come to recognize that.
You are correct in about everything you said. I just want Atlanta to remain on top (in the Southeast) and on par with all of America's biggest cities.

Doing nothing has already cost North Georgia too much in terms of falling behind.
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