Atlantas Final "Transit" adoption Plan...A Joke!!! (Sandy Springs: live in, train)
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I ride the train everyday and at rush-hour there is standing room only on all east-west and north-south lines. MARTA ranks #8 in the nation, http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...s_by_ridership, but Atlanta is the #9 largest metro area. Imagine how bad traffic would be ITP if those 250,000 people drove instead of taking transit.
If you ever ride the subway once in Paris you will understand just how poorly the MARTA system trains are operated. MARTA should have more frequent runs, longer trains, higher speeds for rush hour so there is no overcrowding... don't get me started.
Remember MARTA is not just the subway but bus service as well and if you look at the total cost of this public transportation you will find the public subsidy is highest for heavy rail, lowest for roads per passenger mile. The fact that $4 gasoline has not caused a spike in ridership shows how unwilling Americans are take use public transit. From a cost standpoint roads are the way to go in a city like atlanta with a lower population density.
Be aware, cities like Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and Baltimore all have extensive commuter rail systems, and if you add those in, Atlanta falls down that list.
There needs to be a higher percentage of Metro Atlanta's population using alternative transportation. 250,000 is good, considering we only have MARTA, but it isn't much when you don't have systems like MARC or Metra.
And New York, as we speak, is building another commuter rail and heavy rail line.
No.
First, commuter rail does not serve the same purpose as a city level transit system. It's not used as a replacement to their car, rather a replacement for driving into the city for work or perhaps an event.
With that said, duh, NYC and Chicago will have a higher commuter. NYC because it's NYC, and a very large amount of people work in Downtown Chicago.
SEPTA's commuter rail network has a daily ridership of 114,000. While this is definitely a plus for the Philadelphia area and an advantage over Atlanta, we can certainly get the same type of ridership numbers when a commuter rail network is in place.
As for LA and Baltimore....
LA's commuter rail has 40,000 daily passengers. Combined with their subway ridership, it's a total of 201,000 daily passengers. Still 40,000 less passengers than MARTA rail. It becomes even worse when you consider that the city of Los Angeles has 3.5 million more people than the city of Atlanta and 7 million more residents in it's metro.
Baltimore is even worse with just 33,000 passengers on it's commuter rail each day. More people exit Five Points (55,000+) station each day. Combined with it's subway, they have 91,000 passengers a day. That's 150,000 less passengers than MARTA rail.
While I don't disagree that Atlanta needs commuter rail (and badly), your argument is flawed.
If you ever ride the subway once in Paris you will understand just how poorly the MARTA system trains are operated. MARTA should have more frequent runs, longer trains, higher speeds for rush hour so there is no overcrowding... don't get me started.
There is a lot of truth to this, and it only makes me reiterate my previous point: the most important places to have rail are out in the suburbs so people can use it to commute.
I spent 7 years living in Buckhead. I could get to the Lenox MARTA station in 5 minutes by walking or 30 seconds by driving. My job was located about a 3 or 4 minute walk from the 5 Points MARTA station. But do you know what? I really never took MARTA during the entire time I had that situation.
It was partly due to the fact that I often worked odd hours. This meant that I might be at work very late, and didn't really want to be wandering around the 5 Points MARTA station at 10 or 11pm (it was a several block long walk to get there in not necessarily the greatest part of town and through kind of a sketchy alley type thing). But the bigger issue was that since I wasn't travelling during prime commuter hours most of the time, the frequency of the trains was terrible. If I had just missed a train, I could have driven all the way to work before a MARTA train even pulled up to the platform for me to board.
I also wasn't working the type of job where I could be 15 minutes late and nobody would notice. It was a big risk because the trains were unreliable in their schedule. I also had a few times where trains would just inexplicably stop on the track for 10 to 15 minutes for no reason. Well, I'm sure there was a reasons, but the train operators never bothered to announce them.
I also hate to sound like a terrific pansy, but you know how hot Atlanta summers are. If you don't leave for work until 12 or 1pm, that means you are on the platform waiting for a train in the heat of the day. Even in the mostly underground station at Lenox, that meant I could be covered in sweat before the train even came....not exactly the most pleasant way to present yourself for a day at the office. For early morning commuters, it may not be an issue, but for me it was.
When you can hop in your car and be at work in 15 or 20 minutes, these inconveniences just aren't worth it.
But guess who they are worth it to? Someone who would otherwise be in 45 minutes to an hour of traffic burning a gallon or more of gas each way!
So MARTA can either extend service to the suburbanites who may be willing to put up with a bit more ineptitude to avoid driving....or it can clean up its act and try to make it worthwhile for people who only live a short drive from work. It will never, ever, EVER replace personal transportation in Atlanta...even if that personal transportation is a bicycle! So it needs to stop wondering why fewer people ride it and do what's necessary to get that ridership up.
I spent 7 years living in Buckhead. I could get to the Lenox MARTA station in 5 minutes by walking or 30 seconds by driving. My job was located about a 3 or 4 minute walk from the 5 Points MARTA station. But do you know what? I really never took MARTA during the entire time I had that situation.
Good points, ATLTJL. I don't think what you describe is uncommon. At one point we had offices in a building that was literally built on top of a train station, and we provided free MARTA passes to all employees. Yet almost no one used the system, despite commuting from locations as distant as Henry County, Fayetteville, Stone Mountain and Canton. They said it was just easier to get in your car and go rather than messing with MARTA. It's my impression people don't mind driving 45 minutes to an hour if they've got a decent car. It's still probably faster than public transit and certainly less hassle.
Now on reflection, one thing we did which may have sabotaged our transit efforts was paying for employee parking. If they'd had to cough up $140 a month for parking MARTA might have looked more attractive. However, the reality is we would have had armed revolt and no employees if we hadn't paid for parking.
Public transit will always be a tough sell in the U.S. With the exception of NYC, even cities with very extensive networks such as Chicago, D.C., Boston and San Francisco get less than 15% ridership. In most places it's only 2 or 3%.
Atlanta still had the greatest percentage of all southeastern cities. The drop from 2008 to 2009 could be contributed to the drop in gas prices and/or the recession taking away low-wage jobs which people with no car access depend on.
Atlanta still had the greatest percentage of all southeastern cities. The drop from 2008 to 2009 could be contributed to the drop in gas prices and/or the recession taking away low-wage jobs which people with no car access depend on.
I understand.
Transit is just an uphill battle in the U.S. Even if we spent $20 billion on transit and doubled the number of riders, that would still only amount to 7% of commuters.
While it would be cool to have another 50 miles of trains zipping around, would that truly alleviate our transportation issues in a major way?
Atlanta ridership is ranked #9 in the country. Dont know if it's up or down or not but it may have something to do with the economy.
At least our system is better than Charlotte, Miami, New Orleans, Baltimore, Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, San Diego, etc
Totally agreed. I get real sick of all the MARTA-bashing, when its only real problems--lack of locations and off-peak service--are due to a lack of funding.
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Originally Posted by ATLTJL
There's already a route from Kennesaw to Peachtree center, in fact theres one also from Acworth that I take everyday. Lots of Blacks and Whites, it saves no time, actually longer but saves frustration, not much b/t gas/parking. Hardly any bus is full. Just not the density, that's it, not race, not costs, not time. Density......if I had to transfer, wouldn't even consider it. Wife drives to Buchead
That's because it's bus. I'm not a big fan of BRT for this reason, except in places where rail just will not fit.
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Originally Posted by NY2ATL2NY
simple answer is b/c it cost too much and not enough riders to support it.
I don't see the comparison with the airline b/c most people don't commute 500+ miles every day on a plane.
Many people who could take Marta now, don't. B/C after they drive, hop on train, get off, wait for a bus or have to walk the 5 miles to their office, they could have driven.
Again, it's density. This isn't NY City, Manhattan where it's 13 miles long and 2 miles wide and you can walk everywhere.
Though I disagree with the premise, there is a grain of truth in what you say. I don't think some people realize how bad suburban sprawl is. And I'm not blaming the people who build out and out so much as the politicians who haven't come up with a game plan to stop it. Look at Portland, who has done a tremendous job of countering sprawl as a great example of this.
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Originally Posted by arjay57
I understand.
Transit is just an uphill battle in the U.S. Even if we spent $20 billion on transit and doubled the number of riders, that would still only amount to 7% of commuters.
While it would be cool to have another 50 miles of trains zipping around, would that truly alleviate our transportation issues in a major way?
Depends on how you define it and where you build the tracks.
Again, the way some people talk, one would think that hardly anyone rides MARTA. The facts simply do not support that. And don't forget that if corridors are expanded effectively, then transit ridership grows with economies of scale. That's why I'd love to see Gwinnett and Clayton Counties come online; I guarantee you that people would ride.
Though I disagree with the premise, there is a grain of truth in what you say. I don't think some people realize how bad suburban sprawl is. And I'm not blaming the people who build out and out so much as the politicians who haven't come up with a game plan to stop it. Look at Portland, who has done a tremendous job of countering sprawl as a great example of this.
Being hemmed in by natural boundaries and terrain helps Portland in limiting its sprawl. Atlanta is blessed/cursed by not having any natural boundaries preventing its sprawl. Pretty hard to justify growth boundaries in Atlanta.
At one point we had offices in a building that was literally built on top of a train station, and we provided free MARTA passes to all employees. Yet almost no one used the system, despite commuting from locations as distant as Henry County, Fayetteville, Stone Mountain and Canton.
I can tell you why.
For the people who live south of town, they already have to get in their cars and drive a long way to get to MARTA. So what happens once they get to the closest MARTA station? Well, for them it's the airport....so forget that. Nobody is going to deal with the airport. So they'd have to use the second to last stop (College Park, I think?). But by the time they park their car, get out, walk to the platform, and wait....they probably could have already been at work.
It's even worse for the Canton folks. What are they supposed to do? Cruise down 75, then get on 285 and go up and around to the North Springs or Medical Center MARTA station? By that time, they could have just continued on 75 and been downtown. Stone Mountain is a bit more feasible because they can get to Doraville, but still, you see the inconvenience.
HOWEVER, what if there were stations in Kennesaw? Near Fayetville (I don't know my south of town geography very well, but somewhere around there). If people could take short drives to MARTA and getting on the train is going to save them 45 minutes in the car, I think they would do it.
Nobody is going to spend 20 minutes in a car, and then get on MARTA to save an additional 20 minutes. They'll just stay in the car and continue on. But people might drive 5 minutes to MARTA to save an additional 35 or 40 minutes in the car.
In order to succeed, MARTA has to be ACCESSIBLE and CONVENIENT. Thus far, the organization hasn't really been up to either task. The accessibility issue is a huge hurdle that will require years of time and billions in money to overcome. The convenience factor, that's mostly just laziness and ineptitude. Which is a big reason some people don't want to tax themselves to support what they see as a wasteful organization. It's really tough to argue that point, except to say that even though it's hard to see, the end result will be worth it.
Nobody is going to spend 20 minutes in a car, and then get on MARTA to save an additional 20 minutes. They'll just stay in the car and continue on. But people might drive 5 minutes to MARTA to save an additional 35 or 40 minutes in the car.
Don't forget that the wait for a train can add up to 20 minutes as well.
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In order to succeed, MARTA has to be ACCESSIBLE and CONVENIENT. Thus far, the organization hasn't really been up to either task. The accessibility issue is a huge hurdle that will require years of time and billions in money to overcome. The convenience factor, that's mostly just laziness and ineptitude. Which is a big reason some people don't want to tax themselves to support what they see as a wasteful organization. It's really tough to argue that point, except to say that even though it's hard to see, the end result will be worth it.
A past story about putting trolleys on Peachtree played up the vision by illustrating how lunch time workers could "hop" on and off of a trolley on Peachtree to go to lunch and back. The word "hop" does make the notion sound more appealing as it's a simple action. Now 15 minutes doesn't sound like a lot but a wait of that long takes a big bite out of your lunch time and your wait could be as much as 30 minutes before you can even "hop" on that trolley. In order to have Atlantans trolley "hopping", the trolley will have to be very frequent. Even in Atlanta traffic, you can go a long way by car in 15 minutes even during lunch hour.
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