New Expressways for Atlanta. Where should they be constructed? (Decatur: renting, insurance)

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

What is really concerning to me is no one is considering operations costs.

The operations cost/passenger of the rail line are lower (keep in mind that $900m includes capital + operations over a period of time).

The reason I mention this is so many people make the comment... oh just buy 100 buses, because that is cheaper...

Well it is, but it isn't. The capital costs would be cheaper, however the operations....especially over a long period of time... are much more expensive. Marta's operations budget is often more heavily spent on busing than rail, even though the unlinked ridership is about the same between the two modes.

The last metrics I saw the cost per passenger trip is $2.15 on rail and $2.98 on bus (of course this should be noted... these are 'unlinked trips,' so some people ride on the bus and on the rail to complete their ride).

Simply put...it costs much more to staff and pay for fuel of 100 buses, than it does for 3 or 4 trains @ 4 cars each.

I also want to note... the operations costs of the LRT option per passenger are the lowest, whichstill works well considering it is a relatively short corridor with lots of stops.

What is the break-even period for the operations/maintenance vs. capital expenditure?

I think if you run some numbers, you'll realize that it takes a long time to for the capital expenditure to breakeven, which I doubt it ever does. I might run the numbers later when I have time, but the point remains:

$900+ million for 6,500 new transit riders.
15% of the T-Splost money to benefit 0.12% of the regions residents

Trains are great and when done right they can be a good asset, but wasteful is wasteful.

[cqholt]

Pro-rail crowd is absurd sometimes. If you are going to expand rail, at least expand it to places that would add new riders. Expand it up into Gwinnett and Cobb Counties. Sure it would cost a lot, but at least there would be a decent ROI. How far would $900 million expand the gold line up into Gwinnett County?

Cobb and Gwinnett needs to approve the MARTA tax and pay their far share of regional mass transit instead of having the state subsides GCT and CCT and competing with GRTA bus routes. The state doesn't even give a dime to MARTA, but it will help suburban counties with pathetic county-wide transit systems, wtf Georgia?

[nyte3k]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Cobb and Gwinnett needs to approve the MARTA tax and pay their far share of regional mass transit instead of having the state subsides GCT and CCT and competing with GRTA bus routes. The state doesn't even give a dime to MARTA, but it will help suburban counties with pathetic county-wide transit systems, wtf Georgia?

+1

It makes no sense to see MARTA, CCT, GCT, and GRTA all in downtown Atlanta at the same time each day.

[cqholt]

Exactly, GRTA should run the express buses between the counties, MARTA run Fulton, DeKalb, and Clayton Counties, GCT Gwinnett County, and CCT Cobb County. That way there is no competition between the transit agencies.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

What is really concerning to me is no one is considering operations costs.

The operations cost/passenger of the rail line are lower (keep in mind that $900m includes capital + operations over a period of time).

I'm thinking the TSPLOST includes around $500 million+ for work on existing MARTA facilities.

[RandyWatson13]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Cobb and Gwinnett needs to approve the MARTA tax and pay their far share of regional mass transit instead of having the state subsides GCT and CCT and competing with GRTA bus routes. The state doesn't even give a dime to MARTA, but it will help suburban counties with pathetic county-wide transit systems, wtf Georgia?

Great post

[JoeP]

To the pro-transit crowd:

We are about to spend $900+ million on 8 miles of rail on the Clifton corridor.
MARTA's Daily ridership projection: 18,400
MARTA's New rider projection: 6,500

$900 million for 6,500 new riders per day. Horrible math.

Does this sound like the most effective way of solving the region's transportation problems?

Do the math on highway money.

I would add that the only serious highway construction should be distant from the core counties and act as a true bypass of the city. And they should be very limited access in terms of exits.

[cqholt]

I'm thinking the TSPLOST includes around $500 million+ for work on existing MARTA facilities.

That portion could have went to better projects, like a rail line to south DeKalb or building of light rail from Arts Center to Cumberland, instead of the express buses proposed on both corridors.

[testa50]

We need to replicate the limited-access "superarterial" concept on Peachtree Industrial as much as possible. For some reason people don't consider that a "real" interstate with only three lanes on each side, but in many cities that's all interstates are.

Tara Boulevard to Atlanta Motor Speedway would be a good candidate (and is mostly funded in the T-SPLOST). Also, making Pleasant Hill Road a superarterial from I-85 to Ronald Reagan Pky (which is already limited access) would be a great project.

Also, 316 should be a full-scale limited access road.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by nyte3k

This city DOES NOT need anymore expressways. It just gives us more reason to sprawl more than we need to. At this rate in 20 years, Atlanta will look like a hybrid between Los Angeles traffic and Beijing air quality.

It's proven that more lanes and more expressways DO NOT lower traffic.

Who said anything about lowering traffic? The idea is to reduce delays in that traffic.

I spent most of my life in a metro (Minneapolis/St. Paul) which has a freeway system laid out in a much more gridlike style. In some cases people have as many as three or even four alternative four-lane limited-access routes to choose from.

Here, there simply *is* no viable alternative to I-285 across the north, or I-75 from 285 to the northwest. One single accident can impact entire areas of the metro and add an hour or more to a commute. In other metros, that is far more unlikely.

You can't reduce traffic levels, but you CAN make the commuting experience a smoother one less prone to delays, and I personally see tremendous value in that...