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In twenty years the residents will want these things torn down. It happens to all elevated roadways, they are a good, cheap fix at first. Anything worth building is worth building right, so lets take the $1 billion and use the $40 million the feds gave GA to start a Commuter Rail line and use it create a NW and NE Commuter Rail corridors. Next round of TIA use some money to expand the Commuter Rail system.
Im glad Im not the only supporter of commuter rail...I agree with whoever said it but these road projects should be covered by the gas tax and other taxes but this commuter rail plan is the best option for Immeadiate results for traffic congestion across all counties...Its Rediculous that we dont even have a place for the trains to terminate downtown after planning for over 10 years now...How long does it really take ???? If we just did one rail line a year we wouldve had the whole system
Up n running by now...Also If and when Commuter rail ever does come to this City it Should definitely be NOT commuter based Meaning Trains running all day in Both directions even if its hourly outside rush hours ...it would accomodate ALL working hours and offer leisurely activities...It would be nice to catch a train in Covington and be able to get all the way to Barret parkway in Cobb...it would take just as long to drive which is like 50 miles one way or 100 roundtrip..That same amount u spend fillin ur gas tank could be saved on a fare...
I just think this Entire bill should have gone to Commuter Rail...Atlanya has been on this Road building Shyt tooooooo long to make sense...Why cant we try a diffrent appoach for a change?...The Rails are there...Stations are there for the most part....Build an additional track for movemeny both ways and we have a great system...I understand freight has priority but somethins gotta give...at least commuter rail
Trains speed thru grade crossings unlike these mile long freights that take up to 15 minutes to pass...we couldve had this up n running 10-15 years ago..and could be focusin on Education,water sytems,etc...It jus seems so simple and easy to me to do...But this again is Georgia were talkn about...Nothing never that easy...Miami is about to open its new Central Station next year at its Airport and we cant even Get a single rail line into town yet...Too many old people in control...the younger new generation dont wanna sit on the connector all day long but would rather be movin about and you wonder why obesity levels are thru the roof cuz nobody walks anywhete except when absoulutely nessecary...I know im babbling a bit here but its just so very frustrating to see that even in 10 long years from now...Atlanta will still be "planning" commuter rail meanwile traffic is slowly coming to gridlock status...
in twenty years the residents will want these things torn down. It happens to all elevated roadways, they are a good, cheap fix at first. Anything worth building is worth building right, so lets take the $1 billion and use the $40 million the feds gave ga to start a commuter rail line and use it create a nw and ne commuter rail corridors. Next round of tia use some money to expand the commuter rail system.
Wasn't talking about you. I was referring to the people that do complain about their commute, but they choose to live in Jackson, Forsythm, Fayette, or exurban counties.
Cherokee County 2010 population= 214,346. That's nearly 3% of the metro area population. More people use MARTA everyday than live in Cherokee County. As I said before I think the major interchange work will help the majority of metro area commuters since those are heavily traveled corridors.
Lets apply that elsewhere:
The Clifton Corridor line is expected to have 19,000 total riders a day. 19,000/5.5 million * $7 billion = $24 million.
MARTA as a whole has about 480,000 people using the system (rail and bus). 480,000/5.5 million * $7 billion = $610 million
However, the Clifton Corridor alone is going to cost $700 million which is 29 times what a project of that usage would warrant.
MARTA is looking at $1.63 billion which is 2.7 times what their ridership warrants.
The Clifton Corridor line is expected to have 19,000 total riders a day. 19,000/5.5 million * $7 billion = $24 million.
MARTA as a whole has about 480,000 people using the system (rail and bus). 480,000/5.5 million * $7 billion = $610 million
However, the Clifton Corridor alone is going to cost $700 million which is 29 times what a project of that usage would warrant.
MARTA is looking at $1.63 billion which is 2.7 times what their ridership warrants.
Dear lord this too narrow scoped at best.
I have three major problems with this...
1- you're limiting expenditures to the tax only and ignoring the total amount of money already spent elsewhere, which is heavily biased in other ways, to be considered in the total analysis. Over 30 years we are looking at spending $60B (as-is funding) up to $120B (aspirations to handle growth)...not just this one $8B tax.
If anything by your analysis we shouldn't be spending anywhere near as much on exurban/developing suburban roads as we do now. Those are the areas currently getting much more money than they give into the state pot. More on this in a second...
2- To some extent (like mentioned above with exurban road building) we prioritize certain projects to deal with growth and future growth; not just existing conditions. In other words in analyzing capital expenses on new projects we put down more money in a spot to deal growth.... More money than that area/corridor deserves, then after that it is a smaller maintenance cost. At one point in time the region spent more money on developing the roads and freeways to my corner of Gwinnett, than we deserved (the county had less than 200,000 people then), however now my corner is getting less than what we give/deserve. How fair is it? Hard to say... future generations made a downpayment to make my current area accessible and now I'm making downpayments to make new areas accessible. I mention this, because this will always skew the type of analysis you are making now.
I realize this is easier to understand with new undeveloped areas, but the same principle can be put to use in old/brownfield areas that are redeveloping and creating dense infill development.
3- If we are going to measure the number of commuters compared to the regional population we need to reanalyze the population. Only about half the region works. Many are just babies, school kids, retirees, housewives, etc...
Then we have to prioritize how/where people work. Are some peoples longer commutes more important than others? I realize I am opening a whole line of issues people will argue with, but the short answer is yes! In a typical suburb you have lots of retail jobs, school teachers, piano/dance/daycare/kids activitiy workers, local gov't employees, contractors, and outskirt industrial areas. In -most-cases these employees can easily live close to where they work, however whether they realize it or not, they are dependent on people who commute and work elsewhere to bring money into that community, so there jobs can exist there. If a large company/office work employer needs to be centrally located to reach many more people, etc... they need people to be able to commute further to get to them, but they bring alot of money to region and via paying employees to local suburban areas where other types of workers don't need to commute as much. In constrast a single grade school is located in residential areas and don't need central location and teachers are often more able/likely to live close by.
So if we analyze existing conditions... about half of those that commute actually live relatively close to their jobs (at least within the same county), so then we need to turn to employees, jobs, companies that seem to require larger employment-sheds (areas where people can reliably commute to that job).
So I do take issue with the distribution of how we assign commuters compared to the region's population as a whole
And perhaps I should add a 4th concern. Take The clifton Rd corridor. That area represents alot of high paying jobs for our region and is rapidly growing thanks to more focused interest in health/medical industry in our country. The area is mostly developed, is seeing lots of infill development (both residential and jobs) and the area has no good access to a highway, good transit, and the arterial road network is weak. If we choose to strengthen new development off of the assets already there (a large part of the CDC) we will have a hard/expensive time dealing with the constraints already there making any change more expensive (imagine the cost of adding a freeway spur or creating 3 or 4 larger flowing arterial routes in that part of Dekalb). In other words... no matter what we do its expensive, but we are putting more money down as the region gets more money out of that investment. In this case rail seems like a more viable option as it is less disruptive to an expensive area and any other option would require tons of land being bought up and we could lose out on alot of money from future development if we have a no build scenario.
Ok back to financials. Something we don't want to forget. There already are some taxes, state and local money being spent. This tax represents additional income for new capital projects (and operations cost they need for 10 years).
According to the ARC's 2010-2040 plan (30 years) they documented a need of $120 Billion in expenses for the region to grow at the rate it has been growing.
Out of that $120b about $60 billion already exists under current law/taxes and is planned to be available. Of that $60b about $40b is needed just to maintain current infrastructure (over 30 years of course).
The TSPLOST represents one of the many ways the region could come up with the additional $60B over 30 years. It generates $8b over 10 years. Lets assume it gets revoted in (and if not lets at least convert it to the 30 year period for comparison)... we get $24B ... but lets assume we are growing region... the amount will grow... even if keep everything inflation adjusted to a single year... so lets just say $30B (a little low, but its a nice round number).
Now this TSPLOST tax is half of what the region needs to meet that $120B goal for 2010-2040 (if we keep it for 30 years). However, it is also mostly capital intensive meaning each of these corridors are much cheaper to maintain/operate after they are built! (yes maintenance and operations will always continue to cost money, but it is much cheaper than the initial capital/expansion)
Anyways.. I say all this, because I could recreate the same simple analysis you just did on just about every major freeway, interchange, arterial road project we ever did and still come up short. They still make this region work though.
We would get similar results for the ton of money being put into the GA400/285 interchange, the new limited access conversation to GA316 in Gwinnett, and the new limited access Sugarloaf Pkwy extension in Gwinnett. However, in the long run building it now will make the region better off in the long-run.
1- you're limiting expenditures to the tax only and ignoring the total amount of money already spent elsewhere, which is heavily biased in other ways, to be considered in the total analysis. Over 30 years we are looking at spending $60B (as-is funding) up to $120B (aspirations to handle growth)...not just this one $8B tax.
If anything by your analysis we shouldn't be spending anywhere near as much on exurban/developing suburban roads as we do now. Those are the areas currently getting much more money than they give into the state pot. More on this in a second...
2- To some extent (like mentioned above with exurban road building) we prioritize certain projects to deal with growth and future growth; not just existing conditions. In other words in analyzing capital expenses on new projects we put down more money in a spot to deal growth.... More money than that area/corridor deserves, then after that it is a smaller maintenance cost. At one point in time the region spent more money on developing the roads and freeways to my corner of Gwinnett, than we deserved (the county had less than 200,000 people then), however now my corner is getting less than what we give/deserve. How fair is it? Hard to say... future generations made a downpayment to make my current area accessible and now I'm making downpayments to make new areas accessible. I mention this, because this will always skew the type of analysis you are making now.
I realize this is easier to understand with new undeveloped areas, but the same principle can be put to use in old/brownfield areas that are redeveloping and creating dense infill development.
3- If we are going to measure the number of commuters compared to the regional population we need to reanalyze the population. Only about half the region works. Many are just babies, school kids, retirees, housewives, etc...
Then we have to prioritize how/where people work. Are some peoples longer commutes more important than others? I realize I am opening a whole line of issues people will argue with, but the short answer is yes! In a typical suburb you have lots of retail jobs, school teachers, piano/dance/daycare/kids activitiy workers, local gov't employees, contractors, and outskirt industrial areas. In -most-cases these employees can easily live close to where they work, however whether they realize it or not, they are dependent on people who commute and work elsewhere to bring money into that community, so there jobs can exist there. If a large company/office work employer needs to be centrally located to reach many more people, etc... they need people to be able to commute further to get to them, but they bring alot of money to region and via paying employees to local suburban areas where other types of workers don't need to commute as much. In constrast a single grade school is located in residential areas and don't need central location and teachers are often more able/likely to live close by.
So if we analyze existing conditions... about half of those that commute actually live relatively close to their jobs (at least within the same county), so then we need to turn to employees, jobs, companies that seem to require larger employment-sheds (areas where people can reliably commute to that job).
So I do take issue with the distribution of how we assign commuters compared to the region's population as a whole
And perhaps I should add a 4th concern. Take The clifton Rd corridor. That area represents alot of high paying jobs for our region and is rapidly growing thanks to more focused interest in health/medical industry in our country. The area is mostly developed, is seeing lots of infill development (both residential and jobs) and the area has no good access to a highway, good transit, and the arterial road network is weak. If we choose to strengthen new development off of the assets already there (a large part of the CDC) we will have a hard/expensive time dealing with the constraints already there making any change more expensive (imagine the cost of adding a freeway spur or creating 3 or 4 larger flowing arterial routes in that part of Dekalb). In other words... no matter what we do its expensive, but we are putting more money down as the region gets more money out of that investment. In this case rail seems like a more viable option as it is less disruptive to an expensive area and any other option would require tons of land being bought up and we could lose out on alot of money from future development if we have a no build scenario.
Ok back to financials. Something we don't want to forget. There already are some taxes, state and local money being spent. This tax represents additional income for new capital projects (and operations cost they need for 10 years).
According to the ARC's 2010-2040 plan (30 years) they documented a need of $120 Billion in expenses for the region to grow at the rate it has been growing.
Out of that $120b about $60 billion already exists under current law/taxes and is planned to be available. Of that $60b about $40b is needed just to maintain current infrastructure (over 30 years of course).
The TSPLOST represents one of the many ways the region could come up with the additional $60B over 30 years. It generates $8b over 10 years. Lets assume it gets revoted in (and if not lets at least convert it to the 30 year period for comparison)... we get $24B ... but lets assume we are growing region... the amount will grow... even if keep everything inflation adjusted to a single year... so lets just say $30B (a little low, but its a nice round number).
Now this TSPLOST tax is half of what the region needs to meet that $120B goal for 2010-2040 (if we keep it for 30 years). However, it is also mostly capital intensive meaning each of these corridors are much cheaper to maintain/operate after they are built! (yes maintenance and operations will always continue to cost money, but it is much cheaper than the initial capital/expansion)
Anyways.. I say all this, because I could recreate the same simple analysis you just did on just about every major freeway, interchange, arterial road project we ever did and still come up short. They still make this region work though.
We would get similar results for the ton of money being put into the GA400/285 interchange, the new limited access conversation to GA316 in Gwinnett, and the new limited access Sugarloaf Pkwy extension in Gwinnett. However, in the long run building it now will make the region better off in the long-run.
.... Meaning Trains running all day in Both directions even if its hourly outside rush hours ....... Build an additional track for movemeny both ways and we have a great system ..... I understand freight has priority but somethins gotta give...at least commuter rail.
For the most part I agree. I have been a very vocal proponent of commuter rail, but I just thought this was worth visiting for a second so everyone can understand the cons and benefits of commuter rail.
First, let me just say... we need to remember our freight rail lines are major freight backbones connecting the South to the Northeast, The midwest, and Texas/West Coast. Locally it is a major driver of our economy in that we can pull raw materials and goods cheaper and more easily from any region -and- access our coastal port of Savannah (Savannah is one of the few U.S. ports that exports more than it imports for this reason!) Now there are some cities and parts of the country where the freight rail are more for local connectors and are not being used to capacity, which makes commuter rail less expensive and more versatile on existing tracks, but for the most part... it is definitely not us. In some parts of our region it is next to impossible. Going Northwest into Cobb for commuter rail is far more problematic than going south or east, from the huge bottleneck of freight coming from the midwest.
We can't disrupt freight for the region's economy and especially for our own local economy.
We also need to realize building a FRA standard rail bed is very expensive. Ours exist from over a 100 years of continual investment (through many different ways over the years...public and private).
The cost of building new rails just for commuter (or all day commuter rail) is too expensive.
For new build lines it is actually far cheaper to build LRT lines, which can't carry heavier vehicles or freight, but have a more flexible set of regulations/concerns to engineer.
Instead commuter rail is about expanding limited transit services on existing freight rail by only using the tracks for short periods of time (not disrupting freight...too much) and/or expanding capacity by making alterations/upgrades to the tracks that cost money, but are still cheaper than building all new rails.
A good example of this is the line the TSPLOST puts down money for engineering and development of the line to Griffin (which would later continue to Macon). This line is Norfolk Southern's second track (not mainline) from Atlanta to Macon. The idea is we pay for upgrades that increase the speed limit on the track, which in turns increases capacity for any use, and we take some of that new capacity for passenger rail. We aren't really building more new rail at all, just small sections, new curve alignments, better signals and crossing guards, etc...
This is why commuter rail is so much cheaper than LRT and HRT, but it is also why we, especially here in Atlanta, can't run commuter trains all day or just decide to double track everything.
For the most part I agree. I have been a very vocal proponent of commuter rail, but I just thought this was worth visiting for a second so everyone can understand the cons and benefits of commuter rail.
Firstly, let me just say... we need to remember our freight rail lines are major freight backbones connecting the South to the Northeast, The midwest, and Texas/West Coast. Locally it is a major driver of our economy in that we can pull raw materials and goods cheaper and more easily from any region -and- access our coastal port of Savannah (Savannah is one of the few U.S. ports that exports more than it imports for this reason!)
We can't disrupt frieght for the region's economy and especially for our own local economy.
We also need to realize building a FRA standard rail bed is very expensive. Ours exist from over a 100 years of continual investment (through many different ways over the years...public and private).
The cost of building new rails just for commuter (or all day commuter rail) is too expensive.
For new build lines it is actually far cheaper to build LRT lines, which can't carry heavier vehicles or freight, but have a more flexible set of regulations/concerns to engineer.
Instead commuter rail is about expanding limited transit services on existing freight rail by only using the tracks for short periods of time (not disrupting friend...too much) and/or expanding capacity by making alterations/upgrades to the tracks that cost money, but are still cheaper than building all new rails.
A good example of this is the line the TSPLOST puts down money for engineering and development of the line to Griffin (which would later continue to Macon). This line is Norfolk Southern's second track (not mainline) from Atlanta to Macon. The idea is we pay for upgrades that increase the speed limit on the track, which in turns increases capacity for any use, and we take some of that new capacity for passenger rail. We aren't really building more new rail at all, just small sections, new curve alignments, better signals and crossing guards, etc...
This is why commuter rail is so much cheaper than LRT and HRT, but it is also why we, especially here in Atlanta, can't run commuter trains all day or just decide to double track everything.
I apprecaite ur response man. And thanx for not eating my head off for my opinion like some of these guys here lol...But I understand completely about the logistics Of adding rail service...the only real soulution woud be to add more tracks where nesscesary tho so this way both services can operate simultaneously...im mot sure how the LIRR,Metro North here in New york do it but we have service 20 hours a day...Chicago im pretty sure has somewhat of the same thing and it dosent get more serious than chicago when discussing freight trains...I agree we have to keep the freight folk happy but i just think we need better collaboration with them to accomodate passenger trains also...its a sticky situation Atlanta must find a way out of ..
I apprecaite ur response man. And thanx for not eating my head off for my opinion like some of these guys here lol...But I understand completely about the logistics Of adding rail service...the only real soulution woud be to add more tracks where nesscesary tho so this way both services can operate simultaneously...im mot sure how the LIRR,Metro North here in New york do it but we have service 20 hours a day...Chicago im pretty sure has somewhat of the same thing and it dosent get more serious than chicago when discussing freight trains...I agree we have to keep the freight folk happy but i just think we need better collaboration with them to accomodate passenger trains also...its a sticky situation Atlanta must find a way out of ..
Chicago and NYC benefit mainly that they are older cities. They have alot more rail beds (easily 5 or 6 times as much... at least...) and they are often more robust and wider through greater distances in the city. Many of the rail beds are from an era where everything was moved around via rail instead of by car/truck, so they are left with alot of rail beds that aren't necessary for hub operations. In some cases the rail tracks are -only- used for commuter rail and in some cases they are only use for limited amounts of freight delivery. Most of ours are used for inter-city mainline travel. Our old local-delivery tracks were mostly limited to what we are using on our Beltline project today. That is how small our city was in the pre-automobile era. Use Google earth to look at each of the 3 cities and you will see a huge difference at what the rail inventory is.
Anyways.. I just thought one example you might know of and appreciate is LIRR. Those tracks dead end with the end of the island. The tracks historically can and did carry freight, but it was just local delivery. There are is no thru-travel of freight and goods. Therefore, there is plenty of capacity for any use. Now as I understand is in the last several decades two things have happened... freight service is dropping off and they are also installing third electrified rails. Parts of it are slowly starting to operate more like HRT service, than just commuter rail service.
Metra I don't know much about. I know it operates sometimes on a 3rd or 4th track on some really busy corridors in the city. How that came to being and when... I'm not sure. Sadly, most of our infrastructure are single tracks with passing and delivery sidings, except for a few key/busy areas through the city and into the larger rail yards. And most of it is desperately needed for that freight intercity mainline service.
If we had to build all new to get expanded service... I would think we would be better off with LRT, even if we built it next to the existing freight rail beds. The key is to making sure it is mostly grade separated and given priority at any crossings.
There are a few limited options/opportunities. The tracks that go from Marietta, through Canton, Jasper, and Elijay is a shortline owned by the state DOT. It sees local freight delivery only. The problems to overcome is it is a shortline. As-is without some upgrades the highest speed a passenger train can go is 30mph. In other words... curves would need to be rebuilt, along with new rail crossings at roads that allow for high speeds. The other problem to overcome is once a train reached Marietta that is a freight bottleneck on CSX's mainline between Atlanta and Cartersville. This might mean a future transfer to whatever is eventually built in Marietta... LRT? ... but technically there could be opportunity for a day long service between Canton, Woodstock and Marietta.
There was another abandoned short line, but it became the Silver Comet trail.
Outside that the other key place to start, which is partially included in TSPLOST, is the tracks to Griffin and Macon. It is a lightly used delivery by Norfolk Southern. Upgrading it to a Class 1 rail line will vastly increase passenger and freight capacity options from the way it is today.
The tracks to Stone Mountain, Conyers, and Covington aren't as heavily used as the tracks in Gwinnett and Cobb, which leaves room for opportunity, but I doubt it could ever support freight and all-day service.
The other well known key area of opportunity is the Beltline, of course.
The maps I wish I had, which would help people process the information is map that shows where the double tracks are, the passing sidings, etc... Some of the heavier tonnage lines are double tracked, which means some of the lines in the tonnage map that are blue and are single tracked are operating somewhat near capacity. The parts that are red are at capacity and double tracked.
I also wish I had a map that showed what the current passenger speed limits are. In other words.. what is Class 1, Class 2, etc...
Also, take note of the line to Griffin. Some people have asked why that is the first line to get attention. I think these maps sort of answer that question.
Chicago and NYC benefit mainly that they are older cities. They have alot more rail beds (easily 5 or 6 times as much... at least...) and they are often more robust and wider through greater distances in the city. Many of the rail beds are from an era where everything was moved around via rail instead of by car/truck, so they are left with alot of rail beds that aren't necessary for hub operations. In some cases the rail tracks are -only- used for commuter rail and in some cases they are only use for limited amounts of freight delivery. Most of ours are used for inter-city mainline travel. Our old local-delivery tracks were mostly limited to what we are using on our Beltline project today. That is how small our city was in the pre-automobile era. Use Google earth to look at each of the 3 cities and you will see a huge difference at what the rail inventory is.
Anyways.. I just thought one example you might know of and appreciate is LIRR. Those tracks dead end with the end of the island. The tracks historically can and did carry freight, but it was just local delivery. There are is no thru-travel of freight and goods. Therefore, there is plenty of capacity for any use. Now as I understand is in the last several decades two things have happened... freight service is dropping off and they are also installing third electrified rails. Parts of it are slowly starting to operate more like HRT service, than just commuter rail service.
Metra I don't know much about. I know it operates sometimes on a 3rd or 4th track on some really busy corridors in the city. How that came to being and when... I'm not sure. Sadly, most of our infrastructure are single tracks with passing and delivery sidings, except for a few key/busy areas through the city and into the larger rail yards. And most of it is desperately needed for that freight intercity mainline service.
If we had to build all new to get expanded service... I would think we would be better off with LRT, even if we built it next to the existing freight rail beds. The key is to making sure it is mostly grade separated and given priority at any crossings.
There are a few limited options/opportunities. The tracks that go from Marietta, through Canton, Jasper, and Elijay is a shortline owned by the state DOT. It sees local freight delivery only. The problems to overcome is it is a shortline. As-is without some upgrades the highest speed a passenger train can go is 30mph. In other words... curves would need to be rebuilt, along with new rail crossings at roads that allow for high speeds. The other problem to overcome is once a train reached Marietta that is a freight bottleneck on CSX's mainline between Atlanta and Cartersville. This might mean a future transfer to whatever is eventually built in Marietta... LRT? ... but technically there could be opportunity for a day long service between Canton, Woodstock and Marietta.
There was another abandoned short line, but it became the Silver Comet trail.
Outside that the other key place to start, which is partially included in TSPLOST, is the tracks to Griffin and Macon. It is a lightly used delivery by Norfolk Southern. Upgrading it to a Class 1 rail line will vastly increase passenger and freight capacity options from the way it is today.
The tracks to Stone Mountain, Conyers, and Covington aren't as heavily used as the tracks in Gwinnett and Cobb, which leaves room for opportunity, but I doubt it could ever support freight and all-day service.
The other well known key area of opportunity is the Beltline, of course.
The maps I wish I had, which would help people process the information is map that shows where the double tracks are, the passing sidings, etc... Some of the heavier tonnage lines are double tracked, which means some of the lines in the tonnage map that are blue and are single tracked are operating somewhat near capacity. The parts that are red are at capacity and double tracked.
I also wish I had a map that showed what the current passenger speed limits are. In other words.. what is Class 1, Class 2, etc...
Also, take note of the line to Griffin. Some people have asked why that is the first line to get attention. I think these maps sort of answer that question.
WOWWWW Excellent Points and Maps...Had No idea that many freight trains are running thru the Atlanta Area Especially North West,West, Well I guess we will probably Never See Tru Commuter trains here becuase of this Unless A Dramatic Miracle Takes Place
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Commuter rail is the answer
