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I've been posting these exact same points for years as some of the main reasons I left Atlanta twice now -- once for college and my early career and then again in 2007. I could not believe how anti-urban development metro Atlanta is.
Unsustainable sprawl has scarred the natural landscape and left Atlanta a very ugly metro of aging strip malls and parking lots from Alabama to South Carolina, and from Tennessee to Macon. But it's the hidden cost of all this "growth/sprawl" that is completely unsustainable, as all this cheap mcmansion/big box store development ages at the same time.
This part of Bbrash's statement says it the best and explains that although Atlanta may be a very cheap place to live, the younger generations find ugly sprawl and disjointed communities completely undesirable. That is a huge reason why Atlanta has not been able to bounce back from this recession -- it's a relic of the 80s that refuses to adapt or grow up and repels young people to other parts of the nation. Even if those areas of the US are highly expensive -- there's a cost for living in desirable communities.
Preach!
I agree!
My main problem with the mcmansions in Forsyth, N. Fulton, Gwinnett, etc. is they cost too little. Now people will say I am snobby for saying that because I live in Buckhead. But the point is somebody who can afford a 1.5 million dollar mcmansion might be able to make the mortgage payment but they cannot afford to renovate that house/really maintain it. Because that size of a house may have the same maintenance cost of a 3+ million dollar home intown.
You see a lot of foreclosures in the gated northern neighborhoods and you will see the owners will have purchased it ten or more years ago and they are just walking away even if the can afford the payments because they can not afford all the updates. After ten years a house needs updates. The pool in the yard might need new systems, one of the air handlers probably is gone, the water heater probably needs to go, the kitchens is almost outdated, the bathroom fixtures, the home technology system, etc.
That house is listed for 1.699 million, built in 1997, and it has almost 14,500 sq. ft.!(Property tax about 18,700) Look at how much work it needs(it looks well maintained but it is dated for Sugarloaf). My house in Buckhead has less then half the sq. ft. but it was appraised for much more!(I had a realtor and appraiser come out because I plan on giving it to my realtor as a pocket listing sometime in the next two years.)
To maintain a 14,500 sq. ft. house you would easily need a full time house keeper if both spouses work(and probably somebody else to come in on certain days). Even if one spouse was at home they would still need help maintaining that size of a home. Imagine what a cleaning service would charge even for once a week cleanings? The full time maid would be cheaper in the long run.
We need to retrofit, "fill-in," and make all parts of the metro sustainable.
This will never happen in Atlanta or anywhere in Jaw-ja. Any semblance of interference in the free market causes a knee-jerk reaction by Georgia's ultra-conservatives. They'll paint it as a "socialist attack" on "Real Amurrica" or freedom. Retrofitting and "filling in" is imposing on their "Constitutional Rights" to their land.
Georgia and the Deep South are ground zero for this mindset. The seeds were planted in the '70s with Nixon's "Southern Strategy," but now, thanks to Fox News and the Koch Brothers bankroll, wealthy conservatives have completely brainwashed the struggling masses with fear and propaganda. Throw in a little old time religion that refuses to allow adherents to think for themselves, and maybe a Wal-Mart or two at every highway interchange for diversion, and you have the perfect storm that is 2012 Middle America. It's quite depressing.
Now, anything that infringes on the wealth of the 1% is viewed as a personal attack on Middle Americans and their freedom, even if it could benefit their livelihood or health! It's quite a brilliant strategy that favors the powers that be, manipulating people's ignorance this way, although plainly evil.
And this mentality, my friends, is why I left and loathe Atlanta. It's "get off my land" and "*********, I've got mine" attitude is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with right-wing America.
But what do I know, I'm now a "Northeastern elitist" who thinks for myself...
I agree, as someome who has professionally designed and managed site development projects, I can say it is way more expensive in the long run. Unmanaged development creates extra infrastructure costs, requirements, and maintenance cost. For example, many miles of asphalt, sewage pipe, water pipe, and electrical transmission lines. Neighborhoods are thrown up that are not connected and disjointed without character. Pour quality construction with short design life. What happens to abandoned big box stores after their 15-20 year design life is over? Sprawl development typically doesn't account for walkable and bikable modes of transportation. Developors primary care about profit and their 50 or so acres of land. Look at Europe and how their infrastructure has endured time. Other hidden cost are health(lack of walking and more time in traffic), sense of community, crime, pollution, high stress and noise. When America was a smaller country population wise this method was more acceptable, now with limited resources it now totally unsustainable. Can you imagine Atlanta with double the population growth? Look how the wealthy are now moving back to urban areas. The solution to traffic problems is not building more sprawling highways and surburban areas, in which is putting a bandade on the problem. Growth for growth's sake doesn't make a city great, its the character, quality of life, and community.
Thank you for pointing out the poor design. Like I have said in the exurbs it used to be all about faux chateaus & Georgian style homes. Now it is faux rustic which is the worst of them all. I have seen a few in CCOS where they have renovated their chateaus into rustic estates! They both look bad but I would still take the faux chateaus(problem is most are stucco) or Georgian any day over faux rustic.
This will never happen in Atlanta or anywhere in Jaw-ja. Any semblance of interference in the free market causes a knee-jerk reaction by Georgia's ultra-conservatives. They'll paint it as a "socialist attack" on "Real Amurrica" or freedom. Retrofitting and "filling in" is imposing on their "Constitutional Rights" to their land.
Georgia and the Deep South are ground zero for this mindset. The seeds were planted in the '70s with Nixon's "Southern Strategy," but now, thanks to Fox News and the Koch Brothers bankroll, wealthy conservatives have completely brainwashed the struggling masses with fear and propaganda. Throw in a little old time religion that refuses to allow adherents to think for themselves, and maybe a Wal-Mart or two at every highway interchange for diversion, and you have the perfect storm that is 2012 Middle America. It's quite depressing.
Now, anything that infringes on the wealth of the 1% is viewed as a personal attack on Middle Americans and their freedom, even if it could benefit their livelihood or health! It's quite a brilliant strategy that favors the powers that be, manipulating people's ignorance this way, although plainly evil.
And this mentality, my friends, is why I left and loathe Atlanta. It's "get off my land" and "*********, I've got mine" attitude is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with right-wing America.
But what do I know, I'm now a "Northeastern elitist" who thinks for myself...
There is a big different between intown Republicans and exurb Republicans.
Just so you know the real 1% in Atlanta all lives in Buckhead, Ansley Park, Druid Hills, Cascade, etc. Real money believes in buying a quality home not quantity house like they do in the exurbs. I vote Republican in national elections because I am against income based taxation, estate tax, gift tax, income redistribution, do not believe in global warming(but support conservation), do not support gay marriage(goes against my religious belief), public funding for abortions, all the welfare, and federal government regulation(But if Hillary Rodham Clinton runs I will vote for her), and always Democrat in City elections.
They are doing the "new money swagger" thing in Sugarloaf CC, St. Marlo etc.(All the neighborhoods where everybody is so rich but they put down 10% on the house, all the cars are leased, minimum payments on the CCs, etc.)(I know not everybody there does that but a lot do) I have heard the social pressures are worse from friends up at the schools in Forsyth/N. Fulton/Gwinnett then the "Elite" private schools(Woodward, Westminster, Pace, Lovett, etc.)
Unsustainable sprawl has scarred the natural landscape and left Atlanta a very ugly metro of aging strip malls and parking lots from Alabama to South Carolina, and from Tennessee to Macon. But it's the hidden cost of all this "growth/sprawl" that is completely unsustainable, as all this cheap mcmansion/big box store development ages at the same time.
The thing about it is, how are you ever going to change that? Who's going to tear down all those subdivisions and strip malls and and pull up all those sewer lines? Not only that, based on population patterns it looks like about 92% of people prefer things things the way they are in the suburbs.
I guess when the millennials take over someday they can rebuild the world to their liking.
The thing about it is, how are you ever going to change that? Who's going to tear down all those subdivisions and strip malls and and pull up all those sewer lines? Not only that, based on population patterns it looks like about 92% of people prefer things things the way they are in the suburbs.
I guess when the millennials take over someday they can rebuild the world to their liking.
Well I'm Generation X, so it's not just the millennials, but I digress...
You bring up a valid point: what is going to happen to those millions of square miles of sprawling suburbs with all their Walmats, McMansions, and Burger Kings? They are going to age, and age quickly and become undesirable places to live. The poorly maintained houses will be torn down or converted into apartments. County governments without enough funds due to declining tax revenue won't be able to repair sewer lines or utilities. Roads will go unpaved and nearby foliage unattended. Schools will grow decrepit and not attract the best teachers.
The poor will move into the suburbs as land/house values plummet and the wealthy into the city centers -- with the middle class as a buffer between the two. Much like how it is now in Europe, and much of how it is trending in New York, Chicago, DC, San Francisco and Boston -- other cities with extensive mass transit systems that are utilized by everyone, not just poor minorities. Sure enough those cities are all surrounded by sprawl, all American cities are. But it's the ratio of sprawl to denser city centers that make these cities stand apart.
But lets put this in perspective. It's not going to happen in one quick instant but gradually over the next couple of decades. The wealthier inner cities most definitely will not all look like Manhattan. Most people don't want to live on top of one another. They'll look more like Park Slope in Brooklyn, lakeside Chicago, and northwest DC -- with townhouses, condos and some detached homes on very small acre lots. Lots of parks, tree-lined streets, rooftop gardens with views of lakes, rivers, oceans. I imagine an ideal neighborhood would be Chelsea or Holland Park and other west end areas in London along the Thames.
But lets put this in perspective. It's not going to happen in one quick instant but gradually over the next couple of decades. The wealthier inner cities most definitely will not all look like Manhattan. Most people don't want to live on top of one another. They'll look more like Park Slope in Brooklyn, lakeside Chicago, and northwest DC -- with townhouses, condos and some detached homes on very small acre lots. Lots of parks, tree-lined streets, rooftop gardens with views of lakes, rivers, oceans. I imagine an ideal neighborhood would be Chelsea or Holland Park and other west end areas in London along the Thames.
Personally I think that will be nice. That's what a lot of us baby boomers had in mind when we started rebuilding the inner cities back in the 70s.
Seems to me the city of Atlanta proper may be in pretty good shape for these changes. We've got the only real transit system in this part of the country, and we've been making steady progress on infrastructure, schools and QOL issues.
However, I think a lot of the people who can afford it will still choose the suburbs.
It sounds like you and I would disagree about most (but not all) everything, other than our mutual dislike of suburbia. Otherwise a Republican is a Republican whether they live in John's Creek or Buckhead, they vote for the same politicians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
Real money believes in buying a quality home not quantity house like they do in the exurbs.
-- agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
I vote Republican in national elections because I am against: income based taxation
--disagree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
estate tax
-- agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
gift tax
-- agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
income redistribution
-- this is a vague term that has been vilified to sound like pure communism. Therefore I would not agree and why would you bring this up? Obama used it in a general sense to talk about reverting to a tax structure that was in place under Reagan and Bush I, not an actual seizure of assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
do not believe in global warming (but support conservation)
-- disagree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
do not support gay marriage(goes against my religious belief)
-- highly disagree as I believe religion is a sham, a power structure used to control people with fear and ritual to shame us into sexual mores that are unenforceable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
public funding for abortions
-- disagree as women throughout history have terminated unwanted pregnancies (though rape, incest) in unsafe and unsanitary conditions that have cost them their lives. I do not believe abortion should be used as a casual form of birth control, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
all the welfare
-- semi disagree. The Great Society was a great failure and abused by uneducated minorities who saw it as reparations against the majority white culture. We still live with that legacy of helplessness today with the glamorized thug culture and a disdain for education in the vast poor black underclass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
and federal government regulation
-- disagree, because some states take away their citizens' civil liberties due to religious or cultural prejudices. All Americans should be given civil liberty protections no matter in which state they live in order to maintain a unified, educated, strong and just nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
But if Hillary Rodham Clinton runs I will vote for her
-- agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaLakeSearch
and always Democrat in City elections
-- surprisingly I don't follow this policy here in DC. I always vote Democrat in national elections because I don't trust regionally affiliated legislation (namely from Texas and the South) and their affects on the rest of the country's civil liberties and education system.
Personally I think that will be nice. That's what a lot of us baby boomers had in mind when we started rebuilding the inner cities back in the 70s.
Seems to me the city of Atlanta proper may be in pretty good shape for these changes. We've got the only real transit system in this part of the country, and we've been making steady progress on infrastructure, schools and QOL issues.
However, I think a lot of the people who can afford it will still choose the suburbs.
The problem is that in Atlanta, MARTA is underfunded with no real expansion plans, and is seen by most as a transportation system for poor blacks.
Atlanta's road structure is so haphazard that infill is going to be near impossible or inaffective in most areas other than downtown where there is a street grid. Ansley Park, Little Five Points and other areas still look and feel like small towns to me due to architecture style, road patterns, landscaping, lack of density and even lack of sidewalks in some places.
Atlanta also doesn't have a large body of water in the city center like these other cities do -- no Thames, no Potomac, no Hudson River/Upper Bay, no Lake Michigan -- that can serve as a focal point around which parks and property can be implemented.
It sounds like you and I would disagree about most (but not all) everything, other than our mutual dislike of suburbia. Otherwise a Republican is a Republican whether they live in John's Creek or Buckhead, they vote for the same politicians.
-- agree
--disagree
-- agree
-- agree
-- this is a vague term that has been vilified to sound like pure communism. Therefore I would not agree and why would you bring this up? Obama used it in a general sense to talk about reverting to a tax structure that was in place under Reagan and Bush I, not an actual seizure of assets.
-- disagree
-- highly disagree as I believe religion is a sham, a power structure used to control people with fear and ritual to shame us into sexual mores that are unenforceable.
-- disagree as women throughout history have terminated unwanted pregnancies (though rape, incest) in unsafe and unsanitary conditions that have cost them their lives. I do not believe abortion should be used as a casual form of birth control, however.
-- semi disagree. The Great Society was a great failure and abused by uneducated minorities who saw it as reparations against the majority white culture. We still live with that legacy of helplessness today with the glamorized thug culture and a disdain for education in the vast poor black underclass.
-- disagree, because some states take away their citizens' civil liberties due to religious or cultural prejudices. All Americans should be given civil liberty protections no matter in which state they live in order to maintain a unified, educated, strong and just nation.
-- agree
-- surprisingly I don't follow this policy here in DC. I always vote Democrat in national elections because I don't trust regionally affiliated legislation (namely from Texas and the South) and their affects on the rest of the country's civil liberties and education system.
I do believe in protecting everybodies civil liberties when I talk about government regulation I am referring to some of the crazy business laws that cause employers to hire less people. I also do not think the government should be regulating light bulbs! I do believe in having a social safety net. However I am against the welfare is my lifestyle culture. I understand people lose their job, their spouse leaves them with the children, etc. I am against making abortion illegal because of what people would do and it is better then somebody having a child and abusing him/her or using the child to get more welfare.
I believe in a property based tax and sales tax. I pay a high property tax in City of Atlanta/Fulton but it does not bother me one bit because I like how when I drive past a new school I know I helped pay for that, or go to the court house, parks, etc. I also liked our ad valorem tax which was so hated by Georgians because to me if you didn't like it you buy a less expensive car. And I pay about 6k with my wife for our three cars.
If the people did not want a sales tax I would go with a flate rate and cut all loop holes. I am so against the estate tax and gift tax because my wife and I both own successful businesses and we have to do all of these crazy trusts and companies to devalue the shares so our children will be able to keep the businesses alive after we die. I do not believe somebody should be punished for doing something that creates economic success.
I fully support toll roads for exurban places because I believe if you want to live far out in unconnected areas you can pay for it.
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