Real talk about sprawl (Atlanta, East Point: apartment complex, crime, new home)

[Saintmarks]

For the record, and a little more back on topic, this kind of restrictive zoning limitations has been passed in one spot that I know of in the metro area. When the far southern end of Fulton County incorporated as Chattahoochee Hills, they set up a master plan for three dense communities and unspoilt land between them. Anyone know if this plan is still in effect?

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY

Then you have to ask yourself this question: What about urban people whom grow up in the inner city that no longer want to live there their whole lives? My opinion AND view is that most people whom covet the lifestyle you speak of are those that were not raised in inner city enviro's. The allure of moving into a city for walkability mostly comes from those who were reared in suburban or rural areas. Not wholly, but in my opinion the majority. So they wanna trade in the burbs and driving places for the city where they can walk most places. But the inner city natives dream of something different than the streets they grew up on; they dream of a home with a yard and quiet neighborhood.

While I personally have always lived in an urban environment, and will always live in the city center, I completely understand your point of view and it is very much true in most instances of people I encounter who are pro-urban to the point it makes them stupid.

Your above point also plays out in a particularly interesting way in Atlanta (and a similar phenomena in Houston, Dallas, Miami, and DC) where many of the new arrivals are opting for the suburbs rather than the central city. Some, who don't pay very close attention, think this has to do something with the quality of the central city or density or walkability or blah, blah, blah. In reality, it has to do with the fact that most of the new arrivals are from ethnic and economic groups who never lived in the suburbs before (and in some cases could not by law in generations passed). To them, living in the suburbs is the pinnacle of life and they know of living "in the city" are cramped, dirty, old, and sometimes unlivable conditions. I mean seriously, what kind of place do you expect a person who grew up in the projects to live if they somehow "made it out" with an education and a middle class life?

I suppose some people just have trouble seeing beyond their narrow worldview.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by drs72

When considering an idea like this, it's important to look at the precedent that's already out there, their effectiveness, and how their ideas could be improved upon when implemented in your own community. Take, for example, the Washington, DC area. In an effort to promote smart growth closer to the core and retain farmlands and forests in the area, suburban Montgomery County, Maryland and Loudoun County, Virginia, among others, have implemented growth restrictions in their outer fringes. Make no mistake, these restrictions have promoted smart growth closer to DC, but they have also led to developers leap-frogging these restricted area to even further locales, leading to the suburbanization of Frederick and Washington County, Maryland and Jefferson and Berkeley County, West Virginia, fifty plus miles from the city.

You raise a good point. This is certainly something that has to be guarded against if Atlanta adopts smart growth boundaries. If I read correctly, Portland solves this problem by having smart growth pretty much all over the state.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

While I personally have always lived in an urban environment, and will always live in the city center, I completely understand your point of view and it is very much true in most instances of people I encounter who are pro-urban to the point it makes them stupid.

Your above point also plays out in a particularly interesting way in Atlanta (and a similar phenomena in Houston, Dallas, Miami, and DC) where many of the new arrivals are opting for the suburbs rather than the central city. Some, who don't pay very close attention, think this has to do something with the quality of the central city or density or walkability or blah, blah, blah. In reality, it has to do with the fact that most of the new arrivals are from ethnic and economic groups who never lived in the suburbs before (and in some cases could not by law in generations passed). To them, living in the suburbs is the pinnacle of life and they know of living "in the city" are cramped, dirty, old, and sometimes unlivable conditions. I mean seriously, what kind of place do you expect a person who grew up in the projects to live if they somehow "made it out" with an education and a middle class life?

I suppose some people just have trouble seeing beyond their narrow worldview.

And don't forget the effect of migration. If Atlanta adopted smart growth and some people moved out "because it infringed upon their way of life," then others would move in for that very reason. And don't forget that decreasing sprawl tends to give more opportunities for people to live closer to their jobs, which benefits the economy and can help attract businesses. That's right--there ARE other ways to attract jobs besides endless tax cuts!

[Lady's Man]

this shouldn't be a urban v. non-urban discussion. You can have connectivity and walkability in the suburbus, just like you can in a city. The problem in atlanta is that the sprawl keeps growing more outward. Even before the booms, atlanta was spread out too far. What we see now is just a consequence of a city that grew up in the automobile era. No matter what is proposed, it's ultimately going to come down to the people themselves. More people (a lot more) have to move closer in. I think that is the only solution.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

And don't forget the effect of migration. If Atlanta adopted smart growth and some people moved out "because it infringed upon their way of life," then others would move in for that very reason. And don't forget that decreasing sprawl tends to give more opportunities for people to live closer to their jobs, which benefits the economy and can help attract businesses. That's right--there ARE other ways to attract jobs besides endless tax cuts!

Those types I have no sympathy for. They are the very reason why many parts of the City and the Tri-Cities (East Point/College Park/Hapeville) are in they shape they are in right now: They got scared that people they didn't like could now legally live next door to them and bolted. Even though the first wave of families that came in were middle class, they results shock of white flight nearly brought those communities (and the City with it) down. It's a miracle the Tri-Cities are in as good as shape as they are in (even those same scared folks and new ones who don't know any better think the Tri-Cities is "bombed out".)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Lady's Man

this shouldn't be a urban v. non-urban discussion. You can have connectivity and walkability in the suburbus, just like you can in a city. The problem in atlanta is that the sprawl keeps growing more outward. Even before the booms, atlanta was spread out too far. What we see now is just a consequence of a city that grew up in the automobile era. No matter what is proposed, it's ultimately going to come down to the people themselves. More people (a lot more) have to move closer in. I think that is the only solution.

I think the point people are making is that this is the case in most suburban areas around big cities and anyone who tells you this is an Atlanta only problem is a liar. Once you leave the inner suburbs of the eastern cities (and this includes Atlanta...and NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, DC, Miami, etc), it's totally car dependent. In the west, it's the rule that suburban areas are car dependent inner or outer with only slight deviations (the inner suburbs of San Francisco are more akin to Eastern cities).

[Lady's Man]

Originally Posted by Lady's Man

A question I always ponder is why do people find this way of life appealing? I'm not knocking autmobiles or non-urban living. But why would anyone choose day after to day to drive 10, 20, 30, 40, 50... miles a day, endure horrible traffic, waste increasing resources on gas, etc?

Wouldn't it be nice to walk every now and then... or at least have the option to?

i definitely think it's an american problem in general. Atlanta is hurt a lot by the fact that there are no geographic barriers. I'm sure if there was no ocean near nyc, people would take full advantage of the extra space.

The automobile was an american invention and we were very proud that we were able to create a whole new life style. This is obviously why american metro areas are very different from european metro areas. A century later, I think the europeans are probably more satisfied with their city and metro layouts than we are.

[erick295]

Originally Posted by Lady's Man

The automobile was an american invention and we were very proud that we were able to create a whole new life style. This is obviously why american metro areas are very different from european metro areas. A century later, I think the europeans are probably more satisfied with their city and metro layouts than we are.

This is a common misconception. Europe isn't so different, it's just a lot older than the South. It's true that old European cities are dense (much like old cities in the US are), but Europeans have some of the highest car ownership rates in the world. If you take a look around any new developments over there you'll see they have the very same auto-centric neighborhoods and traffic congestion issues that we have here, particularly in the UK and Ireland. If you want to find a society that doesn't rely on cars you'd have to search farther than that, such as many African or South American nations where the majority of people don't own them.

On a side note, the automobile is in no way an American invention. Europe beat us to that by a couple of decades

[GeorgiaLakeSearch]

Originally Posted by neil0311

I am one of the people who grew up in a big city (Queens, NY). I agree with you 100%.

I grew up in Manhattan on the Upper Eastside and loved it.(Queens actually has better pizza then Manhattan! I alway tell people if they want real NYC food go to Queens or Brooklyn.) I do love how in Atlanta I can live close to the city amenities and still get a house. I live in Buckhead and love the easy access to shopping in Buckhead and cultural events in Midtown.