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Old 06-17-2012, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek, GA
924 posts, read 1,561,795 times
Reputation: 326
Hey kimbro,

You know i highly regard your opinion than anyone here on cd atlanta. Where in northern atlanta do you think has the best potential for a 2nd airport? Brett did notify me that he was pretty bummed that briscoe airport is a definte no go with gwinnett. I think a 2nd airport in columbus is a complete joke.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:04 PM
 
Location: I-20 from Atlanta to Augusta
744 posts, read 469,118 times
Reputation: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Not this again.......

Columbus person... meet Augusta person... I'll let you guys duke it out



You know what guys... seriously... As is.... Columbus, Augusta, Chattanooga, and Birmingham have commercial service. They can get use to some of the major destination Atlanta businessmen need to go and most places with a single flight connection.

There is nothing stopping us from buying a ticket and using any of these airports. ... but we don't. It is too far!


Or Perhaps...in the future I'll just drive to Charlotte. Its got far better flight options and its just an extra 60 miles further than the already absurd 160 miles I would drive to get to Augusta.
The location of the second airport does have to be close to the central hub. Offering more flights from a farther distance will help the airports out more than something closer. Even if you offer further flights, the selected airports will have to construct infrastructure that meets this demand. i.e. runway extension. All I suggested was that Augusta already had all of these things and the airport could support the fast growing Port of Savannah. What I am in-visioning is a global outreach. Think about it, cargo can be trucked or shipped by river or train," which Augusta's airport already has" from Savannah and processed in Augusta which would cost less than on the harbor, then flown all over the country using Atlanta and Augusta. Not to mention Augusta is closer to Charlotte which is an added connection in terms of freight and cargo. I'm just thinking outside of the box. No disrespect to Columbus or any airports, I am just looking at an area of the state that for years has been in the dark shadow of the entire state.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:09 PM
 
727 posts, read 541,598 times
Reputation: 337
I think columbus should focus on Rail and airport exansion for it's own gain and not Atlanta's.

Atlanta should focus on improving access to ATL rather than a seconed airport.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,580 posts, read 2,593,685 times
Reputation: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpanda View Post
Hey kimbro,

You know i highly regard your opinion than anyone here on cd atlanta. Where in northern atlanta do you think has the best potential for a 2nd airport? Brett did notify me that he was pretty bummed that briscoe airport is a definte no go with gwinnett. I think a 2nd airport in columbus is a complete joke.
Thanks for for the confidence. I'm just one man's opinion.

My problem is there simply is no ideal site. We have built ourselves too spread out... and too much in the northern direction without saving land for various purposes.

We had cheap land and used it up.

To me there is no ideal site that will work for all of Atlanta, which is what will make it hard for us to have another -major airport-.

All of the options have some big hurdles to overcome, would be expensive, and won't be ideal to someone.

One thing I've always been curious about... with the right law changes and negotiated deals with the air force... It might be better for their to be a new Dobbins air force case outside of town on larger more versatile land.

Allow Dobbins to be used commercially and for the Air Force. (There is a huge agglomeration of public and private factories on site that will never allow us to completely detach military from the site.... at least not with removing things that would devastating to the localized economy there).

It is ideally located, would be a boon for the Cumberland CBD and has easy access to the Perimeter business district. It is also close to the proposed Cobb LRT route, so there is future possibility for transit. (unlike all of the far out of town sites) However... this would have lots of resistance from those in lower Cobb, Vinings, northwestern Buckhead, and maybe even the Cumberland Galleria itself. It is just the most ideal way to have a major airport added.

And negotiating the right legal changes and convincing the military to move, even on Atlanta's dime would be a huge uphill battle to say the least.

Outside that I feel everything else would be a smaller commuter airport only beneficial to some people. The Paulding, Dawson, and Winder sites are so far out there I don't see too many out of town business travelers wanting to use them to access Atlanta, unless they are going to Lawrenceville, Suwannee, Kennesaw, etc..

I see them being more beneficial to local commuter fliers within about 25-30 miles. It represents a huge chunk of some of our bigger suburbs and corridor growth OTP, but I don't really see them as serving the whole city/region, which is why I like the idea of several smaller regional sized plane airports only. Airports that will go to a few major cities and connect people to hubs of competing airlines (introduce more competition and better pricing to the area).


As far as reinforcing Hartsfield... I can't support a 6th runway without making a major south gate complex. Before we add runways, we need to make gates to make runways 4, 5 (and potentially 6) more efficient. The taxi time from runway 5 to the existing concourses take time and disrupt the other runways. It also makes more room for more flights (and more airlines!). Delta has a solid lock on Atlanta and there isn't much room for American and United to expand (if they wanted to).

That is why there is a debate ... Hartsfield in the long-run wants a south gate complex and Delta wants a 6th runway on the same land.

Delta cares more about getting their existing flights in and out of Atlanta in a timely manner and not introducing more competition. The city wants more competition and more flights/gates.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,580 posts, read 2,593,685 times
Reputation: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpatt.marine1 View Post
The location of the second airport does have to be close to the central hub. Offering more flights from a farther distance will help the airports out more than something closer. Even if you offer further flights, the selected airports will have to construct infrastructure that meets this demand. i.e. runway extension. All I suggested was that Augusta already had all of these things and the airport could support the fast growing Port of Savannah. What I am in-visioning is a global outreach. Think about it, cargo can be trucked or shipped by river or train," which Augusta's airport already has" from Savannah and processed in Augusta which would cost less than on the harbor, then flown all over the country using Atlanta and Augusta. Not to mention Augusta is closer to Charlotte which is an added connection in terms of freight and cargo. I'm just thinking outside of the box. No disrespect to Columbus or any airports, I am just looking at an area of the state that for years has been in the dark shadow of the entire state.
Gosh man... there is alot of stuff to address here... and to be honest... to much of is just misguided at best.

You are thinking outside of the box. I will give you that.. but there is one major theme to this whole paragraph.

It isn't about Atlanta. It is about Augusta and "an area of the state that for years has been in the dark shadow of the entire state."

I'm not exactly sure that is true to start with. Augusta has done well lately. It is doing really well in the medical industry and the state invested in a large medical college there, which no other city in the state has.

The thing you need to realize... Atlanta isn't as big as it is because the state gave it everything and gave nothing to other areas. North Georgia was lucky to be positioned as a major rail and interstate crossroads to prevent passages through the Appalachians. That hub was going to go somewhere. After that we have everything we have on our own growth. We actually give alot more to the state, then we ever get back. Market demand for the geographic position drove the growth here and we took advantage of that.

The problem is you seem to want something that is bigger than a city the size of Augusta can support. You guys have the ability to grow what you need for a city your size already. The problem is the passenger and freight demand to have something bigger isn't there and you can't simply say... hey Atlanta... give us your demand. You're 160 miles away. It doesn't work like that.


Also, air freight doesn't work like that. There isn't much intermodal transfers between air freight and a sea port. The markets are completely different. Air freight moves lightweight, high value material and products that need to be moved in a very timely manner. Sea freight moves very far, very cheap, but also very slow. Typically if you are paying for air freight, there is no reason to use ships and if you can move things by sea, there is no reason to speed it up once it hits shore. Rather they keep moving things as cheap as possible. Also, if there was... Savannah already has the states second busiest airport, its on a huge site, and has plenty of expansion room and is easily accessible to their port (1.5 miles away!). There would be no reason to move the freight to any other city before flying it. Fedex could operate a flight between Savannah and Memphis and move air freight directly into it's nationwide supply chain via one flight.

So to be honest... when we are talking about Atlanta's second airport... This isn't a build it anywhere and people will come scenario. There already is an airport in Augusta and the demand isn't quite there for something far bigger. Atlanta has the demand, but it has to be somewhat close to where that demand is. People in Atlanta already aren't driving to Augusta, Columbus, and Chattanooga to fly.

We have to look at the market demand. Business travelers coming to Atlanta aren't going to fly into an airport 100+ miles away. They want to get to the city and back home in the same day if possible.


If anyone else wants to argue for getting Atlanta's second airport... at least present arguments why its good for Atlanta and not their hometown, because those are the people you have to convince to use it. If you can't, it becomes a huge money pit for your own community that you could have spent for local economic development another way.
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:50 PM
 
10,209 posts, read 5,889,646 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
The thing you need to realize... Atlanta isn't as big as it is because the state gave it everything and gave nothing to other areas. North Georgia was lucky to be positioned as a major rail and interstate crossroads to prevent passages through the Appalachians. That hub was going to go somewhere. After that we have everything we have on our own growth. We actually give alot more to the state, then we ever get back. Market demand for the geographic position drove the growth here and we took advantage of that.
I had to make this same point to someone else in the city-vs-city forum who was under the impression that Atlanta became the behemoth that it is primarily because the state built a bunch of roads in metro Atlanta and if only it would do the same in other Georgia cities, they would also become large cities. It was the silliest thing I'd ever heard. The same also goes for the airport. Atlanta was already a transportation hub when the airport took off, and city leaders took advantage of an opportunity at the time to also become an air hub. It's about a whole host of factors that gave rise to growth, not just building outsized infrastructure.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,580 posts, read 2,593,685 times
Reputation: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
I had to make this same point to someone else in the city-vs-city forum who was under the impression that Atlanta became the behemoth that it is primarily because the state built a bunch of roads in metro Atlanta and if only it would do the same in other Georgia cities, they would also become large cities. It was the silliest thing I'd ever heard. The same also goes for the airport. Atlanta was already a transportation hub when the airport took off, and city leaders took advantage of an opportunity at the time to also become an air hub. It's about a whole host of factors that gave rise to growth, not just building outsized infrastructure.
but the evidence is overwhelming. If we spend billions on 4 lane, divided roads in rural areas over hundreds of miles 20 extra rural warehouses will located here state-wide!

Anyways, this is actually one of the things I have loved about this city being a city-geek. It really allows you to see all the pros and cons for how a city is built, but also how demand will change/overcompensate for existing problems.

One thing I have always thought about is if Atlanta went ahead and finished building its original planned interstate system, downtown would be much stronger and less development would have moved to the other 4-5 CBDs we have now. It is pretty evident the business portion of midtown popped up, because of the attractiveness of accessing multiple interstates and avoiding the bottleneck on the downtown connector.

Many of exurban roads were existing rural facilities that went congested before we could build a road network for newly suburban areas.

I feel like we are a city always playing catch-up with market demand.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:39 PM
 
230 posts, read 200,645 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
In a nutshell...

Dulles is roughly 30-35 miles from the center of Wash.

Gatwick is roughly 30-35 miles from the center of Lond.

Roughly 35-41 miles from the center of Atlan can be useful. Just barely farther than Dulles/Gatwick.

Must think outside of the box...
It can work, but the airport needs to be connected by rail as well, & I do not see that happeneing here. Gatwick has the Gatwick Express. Stansted is around 40 miles form the centre of London, but it has the Stansted Express. A new airport needs to be accesable not only by road, but as well as rail.

If only we can envison something like this, but at a smaller scale.
New London airport in Thames Estuary 'favoured by Government', says Boris Johnson | Mail Online

P.S. I totally forgot about our discussion about MSA size, i'll try and respond within a couple of days
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:50 PM
 
8,682 posts, read 11,623,268 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalvey View Post
It can work, but the airport needs to be connected by rail as well, & I do not see that happeneing here. Gatwick has the Gatwick Express. Stansted is around 40 miles form the centre of London, but it has the Stansted Express. A new airport needs to be accesable not only by road, but as well as rail.

If only we can envison something like this, but at a smaller scale.
New London airport in Thames Estuary 'favoured by Government', says Boris Johnson | Mail Online

P.S. I totally forgot about our discussion about MSA size, i'll try and respond within a couple of days
Chalvs--

One of the reasons why I have suggested the Newnan-Coweta Regional Airport site for MLK Atlanta International Airport is because of its superior location next to a rail line. There would be a direct rail connection to Downtown Atlanta and the Hartsfield-Jackson/College Park Area!

Check out the google map links I placed on some of the earlier posts...!
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:01 PM
 
230 posts, read 200,645 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
Chalvs--

One of the reasons why I have suggested the Newnan-Coweta Regional Airport site for MLK Atlanta International Airport is because of its superior location next to a rail line. There would be a direct rail connection to Downtown Atlanta and the Hartsfield-Jackson/College Park Area!

Check out the google map links I placed on some of the earlier posts...!
Thinking ahead. Nice! As long I don't have to always drive, i'm game.

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/maps/Docu..._Map_plain.pdf

Looks like the 10,000 acres Atlanta owns has a Norfolk Southern line close by as well.
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