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Old 07-05-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: International Spacestation
5,207 posts, read 5,964,106 times
Reputation: 1415

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpcbd View Post
MARTA was supposed to have a line hit Cobb county, in fact, if your in the tunnel just north of Arts Center (???) before you exit the tunnel you will see the siding MARTA built anticipating a Cobb county line. Cobb country voters opted to not pass the MARTA tax and never had the line built to them.
Thats interesting I will need to check that out. Ive never noticed this.
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Old 07-05-2012, 04:41 PM
 
9,585 posts, read 10,919,739 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by readyset View Post
Oh please get off your high horse. One of Atlanta's companies has a greater market value than all of D.C. areas top 5 companies combined. The GDP of Atlanta is as larger or larger than the entire state of Maryland.

One thing I can see that D.C. lacks off the bat is an entrepreneurial spirit. It has trouble marketing, promoting and optimizing it's worth and using it as leverage. From Artists to Businesses, the recognition in the rest of the country is limited. That's one thing Atlanta does very well. This is apparent in the D.C. area as far as it's biotech industry, lack of stamina in being the "internet capital of the world" and artists and genre of music that aren't as popular outside its region.

Silly Marylander's with that thinking that's why you'll always get the short end of the stick in the region even though you put the most into the pot. Keep being what you think is TC. I guess you enjoy Va and DC being your most viable options for finding a job. 60% of the population in Prince George's county sure do enjoy the 3 hour + long commute everyday to work OUTSIDE their county. Montgomery sure does like to see all the job growth going to Fairfax and watch it's median household income drop every year and out of the top 10. A very fair and balanced region. It almost seems like Atlanta metro has its job growth better proportioned, in the D.C. area all the jobs are skewed west exacerbating traffic woes.

BWI: you are wrong, using the capitol building as a point of center BWI is 32 miles away and Dulles is 30 miles away. 2 miles difference give or take. Go map it out. Also, currently BWI is the LARGEST airport in the region with more passengers.

And then you talk about low density from greenbelt to BWI you couldn't be more wrong. Ever heard of a "little" place called Fort G. Meade? The base alone has over 41,000 employee's and will only get larger. It's land area larger than Tysons Corner. It
hold the NSA and Defense intelligence agenices. This doesn't even include the private office space leased by contractors around the area that has been built at rapid pace since the start of BRAC. There has been added 10 -15 million square feet of office space completed and underway just in past few years alone. Then you forget about Konterra Town Center, adding 12,000 jobs at build out. You also forgot about the BWI business district that's over 10 million square feet of office space which is one of the largest Aerotroplises in the country. At the other end you have the City of Baltimore. So please get it straight and stop downplaying yourself.

Truth is more people travel the area between greenbelt and BWI than the those do from Tysons to Dulles. The ridership for the silverline will be low. Most people are coming from North or south not east to west. People in D.C. will use national before dulles.

At the end of the day these are STATES not counties competing for jobs and quality residents, like no other region in the country, that's just the way it is. Until MD, VA and Dc combine to be under one state they will always be at odds. The RESIDENTS which ARE the governments, the commuters and VOTERS all compete so that their respective states are better off, some do it better than others though. You can't sit there and tell me Northrup Grumman or Hilton moving to Virginia was a great win for Maryland or D.C., more like a blow to their faces.

Yes, Atlanta metro does compete with the D.C. area. You act as if the entire region is on some higher plane, again, get off your high horse. I can give exception to D.C. city proper because it's our nations capital and it's in a realm of its own that even NYC cannot match. It just has advantages every other city in the country does not. But not the surrounding area and counties. The only difference I can see between D.C. and Atlanta is the urban ring inside the beltway outside the D.C. proper. Fairfax County is the biggest sprawling mess in the country, Loudon County certainly didn't take on any proper urban planning in it's fast paced growth. Even Alexandria outside of old town is a horribly planned and developed. Outside of Ballston-Rosslyn, Arlington is strip malls, single family homes and 1970s garden apts, Crystal city anyone? While Montgomery County has preserved half the county's land, it looks just like Gwinnett or Cobb County outside parts of Silver Spring and Bethesda. Heck Cobb County has taller buildings and more of them in close proximity, there's your density. Prince George's County is a spitting image of DeKalb County, dc area has their Atlantic station too, it's called National Harbor. These area's couldn't be more similar in that regard and more.
Why are you talking about where jobs are and what kind of jobs different cites have? What does that have to do with transit coverage? DC couldn't care less about jobs in Atlanta. We have more jobs per capita than any major metro area in the nation. You can check the non-farm payroll versus population for that. People commute from other regions to work in DC. I'm not going to waste my time talking about jobs with you.

As for BWI, Konterra will be one of the biggest mistakes in planning ever if it gets off the ground. That whole area is forest and farm land now. Fort Belvior is miles from DC and the closest metro stop. What exactly would be going in between that? There is no density in Fort Belvoir. None! Are you really trying to use a Military base as an anchor for a Metro Station? That is why this discussion is a waste of my time. Your planning fundamentals aren't in line with smart growth so we will never agree. Subway stations need to be in urban neighborhoods or surrounded by TOD and a proper street network. There are no cities or dense development north of I-495 headed towards Baltimore. Laurel is also way to sparce for Metro. Planners actually don't agree with the Silver Line in its present form. It's in the highway median after it leaves Tyson's Corner. That is a huge NO-NO!!

I don't have time to talk with you about which Airport is farther etc. etc. Dulles should have been commuter rail but it's a subway line instead. It's over now so that's water under the bridge. I don't know what happened to you in DC to make you so angry but I'm glad you have found happiness in Atlanta. DC doesn't compete with Atlanta and Alanta is not a peer city with DC. DC's GDP is about double that of Atlanta. There really is not comparison. Good talking to you.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:07 PM
 
369 posts, read 532,970 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
Why are you talking about where jobs are and what kind of jobs different cites have? What does that have to do with transit coverage? DC couldn't care less about jobs in Atlanta. We have more jobs per capita than any major metro area in the nation. You can check the non-farm payroll versus population for that. People commute from other regions to work in DC. I'm not going to waste my time talking about jobs with you.

As for BWI, Konterra will be one of the biggest mistakes in planning ever if it gets off the ground. That whole area is forest and farm land now. Fort Belvior is miles from DC and the closest metro stop. What exactly would be going in between that? There is no density in Fort Belvoir. None! Are you really trying to use a Military base as an anchor for a Metro Station? That is why this discussion is a waste of my time. Your planning fundamentals aren't in line with smart growth so we will never agree. Subway stations need to be in urban neighborhoods or surrounded by TOD and a proper street network. There are no cities or dense development north of I-495 headed towards Baltimore. Laurel is also way to sparce for Metro. Planners actually don't agree with the Silver Line in its present form. It's in the highway median after it leaves Tyson's Corner. That is a huge NO-NO!!

I don't have time to talk with you about which Airport is farther etc. etc. Dulles should have been commuter rail but it's a subway line instead. It's over now so that's water under the bridge. I don't know what happened to you in DC to make you so angry but I'm glad you have found happiness in Atlanta. DC doesn't compete with Atlanta and Alanta is not a peer city with DC. DC's GDP is about double that of Atlanta. There really is not comparison. Good talking to you.
Do you even know what you're talking about? You do mean Fort G. Meade right? Fort Belvior is at the far south end of fairfax and that's what I would call in the middle of no where.

You are the one saying Atlanta doesn't compete with D.C. so that's why I brought up jobs which has everything to do with transit. And who is "we" when you say "we" have more jobs? You act as if the jobs in the D.C. area are distributed proportionally through out the whole region. Montgomery only gained 30,000 in like the last decade while most of the jobs in the region went to fairfax. D.C. has been sustained by the GSA and its federal leasing as well as K street lawyers. It's not like the city gets any big private headquarter moves. And let's not even talk about Prince George's. But you're happy the way thing are despite the fact that it exacerbates traffic woes because people have to drive so far west for a job. That's what it has to do with transportation, that's why despite the METRO traffic is worst in D.C. area than Atlanta.

And you keep saying there's nothing between Greenbelt and BWI which means you don't know what you're talking about. Have you been there lately? There's office space after office space under construction adjacent to the base. And YES I do think a government installation is a good reason for metro to go up there, especially one with 41,000 and has added over 5,800 through BRAC to the base alone initially! There's one going through a place called D.C. which is just a big federal government installation and one at the Pentagon too. The fed also think it's a good idea to extend these lines. Take a look.

Quote:
In 2005, the Defense Department announced that it would be shifting 18,000 jobs to Fort Belvoir in Virginia and at least 5,000 jobs to Fort Meade in Maryland by 2012, as part of that year's Base Realignment and Closure plan. In anticipation of such a move, local officials and the military proposed extending the Blue and Green Lines to service each base. The proposed extension of the Green Line could cost $100 million per mile ($60 million per kilometer), and a light rail extension to Fort Belvoir was estimated to cost up to $800 million. Neither proposal has established timelines for planning or construction.[92][93]


http://www.aacounty.org/BRAC/index.cfm

Growth Action
OrganizationsInstallation Job GainsDef. Contr. Job GainsFort Meade BRAC (Complete 2011)-Defense Information Systems Agency's
-Defense Media Activity
-Defense Adjudication Co-location
5,80013,500Fort Meade Ancillary Growth (Complete 2015)-Asymmetrical Warefare Group (2006)
-Other organizations
2,0004,600National Security Agency (Complete 2015)-NSA6,6801,620Cyber Mission (Complete 2011)-HQ, Defense Cyber Command
-HQ, Fleet Cyber Command
-HQ, Army Force Cyber
-HQ, Marine Force Cyber
-Homeland Security Cyber Element
2,3205,400Enhanced Use Lease (Complete 2015)-Trammell Crow
-Defense Contractors
10,000(10,000)

And you think Konterra would be a mistake yet you support Tysons Corner? The biggest unplanned mistake to grow out the DC area? What do you think it was before a reclaimed nuclear war zone? Nah it was greenfields and farm land! At least Konterra Town Center is properly planned and will take on an urban form and grid.

There are no cities or dense development between Dulles and East falls church, sorry neither Tysons or Reston qualifies as dense development!

The best way to describe D.C. city proper is a spoiled brat trust fund baby.

As far as BWI you can question all you want, doesn't change the fact that both BWI and Dulles are the same distance from the center of D.C.

Again you haven't said anything worthwhile, you certainly haven't proven me wrong.

But enjoy your regressive high taxes, nazi police forces, nanny governments, corrupt embezzling politicians, illegal immigrant funding, uncompetitive nature, expensive cost of living roach infested apartments, and crashing METRO cars! I finally woke up and got fed up and realized D.C. wasn't worth it.

Last edited by readyset; 07-05-2012 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:21 PM
 
9,585 posts, read 10,919,739 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by readyset View Post
Do you even know what you're talking about? You do mean Fort G. Meade right? Fort Belvior is at the far south end of fairfax and that's what I would call in the middle of no where.

You are the one saying Atlanta doesn't compete with D.C. so that's why I brought up jobs which has everything to do with transit. And who is "we" when you say "we" have more jobs? You act as if the jobs in the D.C. area are distributed proportionally through out the whole region. Montgomery only gained 30,000 in like the last decade while most of the jobs in the region went to fairfax. D.C. has been sustained by the GSA and its federal leasing as well as K street lawyers. It's not like the city gets any big private headquarter moves. And let's not even talk about Prince George's. But you're happy the way thing are despite the fact that it exacerbates traffic woes because people have to drive so far west for a job. That's what it has to do with transportation, that's why despite the METRO traffic is worst in D.C. area than Atlanta.

And you keep saying there's nothing between Greenbelt and BWI which means you don't know what you're talking about. Have you been there lately? There's office space after office space under construction adjacent to the base. And YES I do think a government installation is a good reason for metro to go up there, especially one with 41,000 and has added over 5,800 through BRAC to the base alone initially! There's one going through a place called D.C. which is just a big federal government installation and one at the Pentagon too. The fed also think it's a good idea to extend these lines. Take a look.



BRAC Homepage

Growth Action
OrganizationsInstallation Job GainsDef. Contr. Job GainsFort Meade BRAC (Complete 2011)-Defense Information Systems Agency's
-Defense Media Activity
-Defense Adjudication Co-location
5,80013,500Fort Meade Ancillary Growth (Complete 2015)-Asymmetrical Warefare Group (2006)
-Other organizations
2,0004,600National Security Agency (Complete 2015)-NSA6,6801,620Cyber Mission (Complete 2011)-HQ, Defense Cyber Command
-HQ, Fleet Cyber Command
-HQ, Army Force Cyber
-HQ, Marine Force Cyber
-Homeland Security Cyber Element
2,3205,400Enhanced Use Lease (Complete 2015)-Trammell Crow
-Defense Contractors
10,000(10,000)

And you think Konterra would be a mistake yet you support Tysons Corner? The biggest unplanned mistake to grow out the DC area? What do you think it was before a reclaimed nuclear war zone? Nah it was greenfields and farm land! At least Konterra Town Center is properly planned and will take on an urban form and grid.

There are no cities or dense development between Dulles and East falls church, sorry neither Tysons or Reston qualifies as dense development!

The best way to describe D.C. city proper is a spoiled brat trust fund baby.

Again you haven't said anything worthwhile, you certainly haven't proven me wrong.

But enjoy your regressive high taxes, nazi police forces, nanny governments, corrupt embezzling politicians, illegal immigrant funding, uncompetitive nature, expensive cost of living roach infested apartments, and crashing METRO cars! I finally woke up and got fed and realized D.C. wasn't worth it.

LOL....Tyson's Corner is going through the greatest redevelopment in the entire country right now. The redevelopment model is being studied by planners all over the country. It's eventual form will be larger than many mid-sized cities downtowns. You might want to google Tyson's Corner redevelopment to get caught up.

Honestly, I'm over this debate with you. You aren't trained in urban planning which is clear throughout this exchange. The good thing is, people with opinions like yours aren't paid to make decisions that matter in the grand scheme of things. Urbanity is obviously not your strongest subject which is why you aren't really qualified to have this conversation. Hope I didn't offend you but this is just a waste of time. Yeah, I meant to say Fort Meade by the way.

I will definetly enjoy DC. Atlanta is nice, it's just not really my style. I prefer a high density urban type of city but to each his own. I'm not a suburb person so this whole conversation about Maryland vs. Virginia is not important to me. I need the city which is why I could never live in the south. Just isn't urban enough for me. I wish you nothing but success down there.. I went to school in the south and enjoyed my time there. It's just not fast enough for me. Good luck man!

Last edited by MDAllstar; 07-05-2012 at 08:30 PM..
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:01 PM
 
369 posts, read 532,970 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
LOL....Tyson's Corner is going through the greatest redevelopment in the entire country right now. The redevelopment model is being studied by planners all over the country. It's eventual form will be larger than many mid-sized cities downtowns. You might want to google Tyson's Corner redevelopment to get caught up.

Honestly, I'm over this debate with you. You aren't trained in urban planning which is clear throughout this exchange. The good thing is, people with opinions like yours aren't paid to make decisions that matter in the grand scheme of things. Urbanity is obviously not your strongest subject which is why you aren't really qualified to have this conversation. Hope I didn't offend you but this is just a waste of time. Yeah, I meant to say Fort Meade by the way.

I will definetly enjoy DC. Atlanta is nice, it's just not really my style. I prefer a high density urban type of city but to each his own. I'm not a suburb person so this whole conversation about Maryland vs. Virginia is not important to me. I need the city which is why I could never live in the south. Just isn't urban enough for me. I wish you nothing but success down there.. I went to school in the south and enjoyed my time there. It's just not fast enough for me. Good luck man!
Did I hit a nerve? I thought you were done psoting the last time. LOL "Tyson's Corner is going through the greatest redevelopment in the entire country right now." LOL you need to get out more.

I'm sure you're very qualified in urban planning since you know your geography so well too! And you supporting tysons speaks volumes of your "training" already!

Funny how you keep mentioning "planning" like it's the catalyst for growth in D.C. Sorry to disappoint you but planners have very little do with the growth in dc or any city for that matter. They could plan till their heads exploded and it wouldn't make a difference if the project wasn't financially feasible. I hope you didn't think planners actually had any power? Most planners don't know what they're talking about and fail to see the big picture anyways, they often try to dictate through zoning what use is allowed like they are Economists, but they don't know what they're talking about, it's pretty much arbitrarily done like the height limits they pulled out their asses. The planning in D.C. was done about 100 years ago. "Planners" are just copying what was done 100+ years ago before all these "official" planning depts were created. After the mess they suggested in the 1950's, 60's and 70's what else can they do? Developers want to integrate with the historic structures and rowhouses, the street grid has been done for while now. What exactly are they "planning". Push comes to shove Developers will request a rezone for whatever use is feasible cause they know better than the planners do about Market Economics, you've also shown you know nothing about that.

The real reason why developers are in D.C. is because their properties have a Washington, D.C. address and further more people are moving in because of the federal jobs. Not anything to do with what planners have done. The economic development corp of D.C., lower property taxes and the feds have more to do with that.

First its the "region is big and better than Atlanta's" and now it's "I don't care about Maryland or Virginia only the city" through one side of the mouth while touting tysons and the silver line and Maryland's biotech industry out the other. OK MDallstar, I wonder why you aren't DCallstar.

Again, As far as BWI you can question it all you want, doesn't change the fact that both BWI and Dulles are virtually the same distance from the center of D.C.


Atlanta is urban too and new developments are following urban form. But cities are about commerce and trade first and foremost, that's what D.C. lacks and why it's so dry, boring and uncompetitive.

Last edited by readyset; 07-05-2012 at 09:39 PM..
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:09 PM
 
28,113 posts, read 24,646,505 times
Reputation: 9528
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
I will definetly enjoy DC. Atlanta is nice, it's just not really my style. I prefer a high density urban type of city but to each his own. I'm not a suburb person so this whole conversation about Maryland vs. Virginia is not important to me. I need the city which is why I could never live in the south. Just isn't urban enough for me. I wish you nothing but success down there.. I went to school in the south and enjoyed my time there. It's just not fast enough for me. Good luck man!
It would be a mistake to think that because Atlanta is more suburban we don't move plenty fast down here when we want to. I have lived in big cities and I can tell you that a bunch of people walking fast down a sidewalk or buildings built to zero lot lines does not equal productivity or creativity.
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:17 PM
 
369 posts, read 532,970 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
It would be a mistake to think that because Atlanta is more suburban we don't move plenty fast down here when we want to. I have lived in big cities and I can tell you that a bunch of people walking fast down a sidewalk or buildings built to zero lot lines does not equal productivity or creativity.
That's the key right there, while I enjoy the pretty buildings in D.C. (although it has its development disasters) it's frustrating when so many people only care about their government job and themselves. It's a very individualistic city where people only care about themselves. It's hard to get people together to form a business oriented group (maybe if it's government contracting), their just aren't enough entrepreneurial types in the D.C. area and it shows. They take for ever to get things done too (paralysis by analysis is what the area is known for). Look how long the H street light rail is taking, Atlanta's will have there's done and running before D.C. which had a good head start. And they call the deep south slow.

Last edited by readyset; 07-05-2012 at 09:35 PM..
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,257,556 times
Reputation: 4205
Here is the reason why I'm getting tired of this discussion and these outsiders are trolling..

We aren't arguing about the purpose of this thread anymore.

These people are just arguing DC boosterism and at times unapologetically, blindly putting us down here and there.

Truthfully, I love DC, but I also love Atlanta. There are some things they have done that are really similar and some things that are really different.

but a key thing being lost here... in case anyone hasn't noticed in this thread... both cities have done extremely well. The put downs about Atlanta are completely unwarranted. We have first class transportation connections and a huge white collar business base. We are a big business center, whether people in this thread from the DC area want to acknowledge it or not.

I want to make this one point and don't really want to prolong this argument. Both cities have been very progressive in tackling the problems with how we grew from the 40s into the 90s, however we have done so in very different ways. While we are much more spread out, we also forced zoning integration between housing, jobs (retail, white and blue collar) in a more extreme way than most metros do.

DC has done some other great things as well. What is so incredibly stupid about this discussion is we have a clear case where we can learn alot from each other.

The simple fact of the matter is DC (not Baltimore... I know there is some integration between the cities, but they are separate metros) is close to being the same size, has more transit usage, has spent a great deal of money on their freeway system (as we have as well), they are built on a much smaller urban foot print (which should encourage people to drive shorter distances and have less traffic), yet they are consistently ranked with worse traffic than us.

There is alot more to urban planning than simply adding density and transit. Much of it has to do with placement. Connecting the right types of housing with the right types of jobs, regardless of how. (something many people resist for various social reasons... ie. middle class/upper middle class often like retail centers near them, and retail centers like being near them, but we do a good bit to make sure there is retail worker priced housing nearby in how we zone. Our avg commute distances has been shrinking nearly every year this past decade.)

However, there is much Atlanta can learn from DC as well. We originally prevented Transit oriented zoning around MARTA stations, with the exception of Midtown (which everyone conveniently forgets use to be a suburban retail area before the late 80s/90s). We are also caught on with the New Urbanism wave and are building new denser communities of all types (urban, suburbam, small town), but we also do so with great reflection of zoning (which we didn't do pre-mid 90s).

We have also worked on our problems with great adversity, has been mentioned we are extremely limited in funding, because we only have 1 state government involved in our city that offers little help, whereas DC has the federal gov't and 2 state governments combining resources. For things like transit... we had a single sales tax from just 2 counties and got alot accomplished from such a small thing. Believe me, I would love to have a system like DC's. It has been a very frustrating thing for some of us, but as for how well our city has done as a whole... some of the comments I have read in this thread are so far off base.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Northlake
579 posts, read 1,163,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcsteiner View Post
As has already been stated and shown in other threads, Atlanta is structured as a multinodal metro, which means that a large percentage of the residents in its suburban areas commute to/from business districts in the suburbs like Cumberland and the Perimeter area, not downtown.

Most of the need, at least in Cobb, is to address commuting along the I-75 corridor to those places, not to the center of the city.
Just as many people commute Downtown as to the area(s) you mentioned. You may want to re-check that information out. 75 southbound (ISP) stay flooded with morning commuters heading into the city to work.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 21,896,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bornjacksonian View Post
Just as many people commute Downtown as to the area(s) you mentioned. You may want to re-check that information out. 75 southbound (ISP) stay flooded with morning commuters heading into the city to work.
Perhaps, but how many of those are actually coming from I-75 in Cobb and going past 285 further south, and how many are coming from either direction on I-285 before taking I-75 south?

Of those going south of I-75, how many get off the freeway well before it gets into downtown? I know people in my building in Cumberland who take that route and then get off on Cumberland Blvd. That ain't downtown ... that's in Cobb.

I don't take that route ... I don't take an interstate at all ... so all I have to go by are comments from coworkers hinting that a lot people on southbound I-75 take the 285 exits.

There was also a recent study posted on C-D that showed that a fairly small percentage of Cobb County residents commuted outside of Cobb at all for work.

Do you have actual numbers, or are we both speculating?
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