Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Excellent points all around. Not sure why so many Atlanta posters are so keen on putting down Washington in one breath and then trying to compare it to Atlanta in another. Serious insecurity issues going on there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I don't really know how you are trying to compare Washington D.C.'s rapid transit network to Atlanta's rapid transit network. There is absolutely no comparison and it's an apples and oranges debate. Washington D.C.'s transit coverage is in a completely different league than Atlanta's. Washington D.C has 11 rail lines spanning 383.3 miles with 147 stations. DC is currently building a 6 billion dollar Metro expansion that equals half of Marta's entire system to put it into perspective. That will put D.C's total rail coverage at 406.3 miles and 158 stations. How is DC paying for this expansion? Almost completely by tolls on the Dulles Toll Road which is exactly how it should be.
Washington D.C:
WMATA Metro Rail:
-Milage: 106.3 miles (23 miles under construction)
-Stations: 86 (11 stations under construction)
MARC Commuter Rail:
-Milage: 187 miles
-Stations: 43
VRE Commuter Rail:
-Milage: 90 miles
-Stations: 18
You are pretty misinformed about the appropriate use of mass transit in a metro area when it comes to far outlying area's metro wide by the way. Couple things.....
The DC/Balt. region has a population of close to 9 million people in the same amount of land as Atlanta's whole region basically. It is served by three international airports that give each part of the region access to an airport close to where they live. BWI is too far away to be served by metro at 35 miles from Washington D.C. BWI is served by MARC commuter rail from DC and Baltimore's Light Rail system since Baltimore is only 9 miles from BWI. The following serve as connections to BWI International Airport from DC:
-MARC Penn Line (one of DC's 5 Commuter Rail Lines)
-201 MTA Commuter Bus from Shady Grove Metro Station (Charter Bus Style) to BWI Airport
-Metro Bus B30
The argument about Metro to Dulles Airport is pointless now because Metro will reach Dulles in a few years whether commuter rail would have been a better mode that far from DC or not. I think in this particular instance, Tyson's Corner in between Dulles and DC makes the new Silver Metro Line viable. Always remember, one of the main reason's the Atlanta area is suffering is because many people don't accept rapid transit.
You need to stop comparing apples to oranges here. Washington is a progressive metro years ahead of Atlanta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by readyset
I think once you start riding it you wont find it so limited. It hits all the major parts in the city and goes to the major airport of the region unlike the D.C. area (METRO doesn't go to BWI, the largest in the region, or Dulles... yet). There is National but it's small, limited and expensive.
Not that MARTA can't use expansion improvement but so can METRO. You have to understand that Atlanta is 128 sq/mi vs DC 68 sq/mi. At least North/South you would already be in Silver Spring or Arlington if you traveled some of that distance in Atlanta. Sandy Springs/Dunwoody is the equivalent to Tysons Corner/Mclean/Vienna and even larger, yet it has had several MARTA stations for a while, Tysons is just about to open it's first station.
DC is also comprised of 3 jurisdictions acting like 3 states that compete with each other, u have duplicate cities and urban areas outside the city proper cause each is competing with the other (Alexandria and Arlington vs Silver Spring and Bethesda etc). One of the jurisdictions also happens to be the nations capital. METRO gets funding from all three. And all three want their fair share of the METRO system. These are states battling not counties and they compete too. In Atlanta it's one state and one metro, whatever competition and squabbles go on here pale in comparison to the DC area.
MARTA is also cleaner (no carpets and newer cars overall) than METRO and you can understand what they are saying on the intercom system. METRO also has a horrible performance record, 9 people died in a crash in 2009 with numerous track jumps since then and TODAY a train got stuck between the Prince George's Plaza and College Park stations and passengers had to wait an hour in hot cars with no air conditioning, then evacuate and walk a half mile through a field of electrified tracks to get to the nearest stations then ride a nasty, crowded, hot, steamy bus to their final destination. Just like clock work and almost on the anniversary of the crash that killed 9 people. I'm so glad I don't have to ride METRO anymore, what a horrible experience.
I agree with you though about the cobb line, it's the biggest missing piece to the MARTA system imo. It would be the equivalent to no left leg of the red line going through Montgomery County. If they would add that line it would be neck and neck with D.C. Metro as far as coverage. If the TSPLOT passes MARTA will build a newline from Lindbergh station and go through Emory University and the Beltline will start as well. Atlanta always seems to have some kind of surprise up it's sleeve and they move fast. In many areas they are right up there with D.C. metro.
I don't really know how you are trying to compare Washington D.C.'s rapid transit network to Atlanta's rapid transit network. There is absolutely no comparison and it's an apples and oranges debate. Washington D.C.'s transit coverage is in a completely different league than Atlanta's. Washington D.C has 11 rail lines spanning 383.3 miles with 147 stations. DC is currently building a 6 billion dollar Metro expansion that equals half of Marta's entire system to put it into perspective. That will put D.C's total rail coverage at 406.3 miles and 158 stations. How is DC paying for this expansion? Almost completely by tolls on the Dulles Toll Road which is exactly how it should be.
Washington D.C:
WMATA Metro Rail:
-Milage: 106.3 miles (23 miles under construction)
-Stations: 86 (11 stations under construction)
MARC Commuter Rail:
-Milage: 187 miles
-Stations: 43
VRE Commuter Rail:
-Milage: 90 miles
-Stations: 18
You are pretty misinformed about the appropriate use of mass transit in a metro area when it comes to far outlying area's metro wide by the way. Couple things.....
The DC/Balt. region has a population of close to 9 million people in the same amount of land as Atlanta's whole region basically. It is served by three international airports that give each part of the region access to an airport close to where they live. BWI is too far away to be served by metro at 35 miles from Washington D.C. BWI is served by MARC commuter rail from DC and Baltimore's Light Rail system since Baltimore is only 9 miles from BWI. The following serve as connections to BWI International Airport from DC:
-MARC Penn Line (one of DC's 5 Commuter Rail Lines)
-201 MTA Commuter Bus from Shady Grove Metro Station (Charter Bus Style) to BWI Airport
-Metro Bus B30
The argument about Metro to Dulles Airport is pointless now because Metro will reach Dulles in a few years whether commuter rail would have been a better mode that far from DC or not. I think in this particular instance, Tyson's Corner in between Dulles and DC makes the new Silver Metro Line viable. Always remember, one of the main reason's the Atlanta area is suffering is because many people don't accept rapid transit.
Nothing you said has refuted my previous post so I'm not going to waste too much time on what you just said but I will address the bold.
You are wrong about BWI. Did you know that Dulles airport is actually the same distance if not longer from DC city center? Yet Dulles is still getting heavy rail.
Marylander's always want to be PC and TC and think the region is one big happy family, Virginia is riding around and getting it while Marylander's continue to be oblivious and loose business thinking everything is fine and the other jurisdiction are playing "fair".
You want the truth? D.C. and Virginia despise Maryland, it's their competition, they'll do whatever they can to steal business from it.
It's sad considering Maryland is the sole contributor of the land for our nations capital but the least benefactor in pretty much all areas, from government agencies, business and now transit. It always seems D.C. favors Va too with all the monuments in Arlington and government agencies. 2 sq/mi Falls church has more federal leased space than a 500 sq/mi Prince George's county, md. How sad and pathetic. But I'm not surprised since high tax Maryland is uncompetive and content.
I always say Maryland maybe be book smart but they are pretty stupid when it comes to business and streets.
MDAllstar, for someone with that name you don't show much support for Maryland and wanting it to improve you just seem content with the way things are. Enjoy your purple line trolly and glorified bus service on the CCT.
Nothing you said has refuted my previous post so I'm not going to waste too much time on what you just said but I will address the bold.
You are wrong about BWI. Did you know that Dulles airport is actually the same distance if not longer from DC city center? Yet Dulles is still getting heavy rail.
Marylander's always want to be PC and TC and think the region is one big happy family, Virginia is riding around and getting it while Marylander's continue to be oblivious and loose business thinking everything is fine and the other jurisdiction are playing "fair".
You want the truth? D.C. and Virginia despise Maryland, it's their competition, they'll do whatever they can to steal business from it.
It's sad considering Maryland is the sole contributor of the land for our nations capital but the least benefactor in pretty much all areas, from government agencies, business and now transit. It always seems D.C. favors Va too with all the monuments in Arlington and government agencies. 2 sq/mi Falls church has more federal leased space than a 500 sq/mi Prince George's county, md. How sad and pathetic. But I'm not surprised since high tax Maryland is uncompetive and content.
I always say Maryland maybe be book smart but they are pretty stupid when it comes to business and streets.
MDAllstar, for someone with that name you don't show much support for Maryland and wanting it to improve you just seem content with the way things are. Enjoy your purple line trolly and glorified bus service on the CCT.
"MD" in my screen name is not an abbreviation for Maryland the state. Residents don't compete, jurisdictions compete. People living in DC, Maryland, Virginia all enjoy the same jobs and advantages. Its better to think of Maryland, Virginia, and DC as counties in a metro area than states. That is how they interact. People travel between each jurisdiction freely for work, shopping, entertainment etc. Also, Dulles is closer to DC at 26 miles than BWI at 35 miles. The only reason Dulles doesn't have commuter rail instead of Metro is because there was no old freight line to convert to commuter rail leading to Dulles. You need old freight lines to build commuter rail at a cheaper price than Metro. Understanding the history of DC not being a freight industrial hub should help you understand why DC's potential commuter rail network would never develop like some other Northeastern cities. The price of ROW basically drives the high cost for heavy rail lines. Freight lines cut down on the cost of obtaining ROW. Instead, the region is overrun by Metro lines in place of commuter rail lines. MARC and VRE commuter rail still have capacity issues on some of their lines because they have to share with CSX freight traffic.
I already addressed the reason building Metro to Dulles may be viable which if you had read my post, you would have seen. Tyson's Corner gives the Silver Metro Line an increased value and ten's of thousands of more passengers.
Where would the ridership come from on a Metro line out to BWI?
How would Metro to BWI be financially viable?
There is no major job center to pass through. There is no densely populated area to pass through. It wouldn't even win federal funding because of extremly low projected ridership. You have to look at these types of issues from a professional planning standpoint. You can't analyze this looking at it from some "rootie too" point of view from just anybody with an opinion off the street. Professionally speaking, the Silver Line is only viable because of the development it passes through and the airport on the end. The land between DC and BWI Airport is very low density single family houses. That type of development can't support heavy rail rapid transit.
People living in Maryland, Virginia, and DC don't live in separate regions. They all live in the same region. They all have access to the same jobs. They all attend the same sporting events. They all watch the same TV stations. They all listen to the same radio stations. They all shop at the same places. They all go to the same nightclubs and lounges. The biggest difference in this region is between people in the DMW versus people in Baltimore. The DMV is definitely night and day to Baltimore even though both region's still have access to the same jobs and advantages.
At the end of the day, DC doesn't compete with Atlanta in almost anything that matters. The only comparison between the two region's would be that both have large successful African American population's. DC competes with NYC, San Francisco, Chicago etc. in all the categories that matter. DC and Atlanta were built in a different eras and are vastly different. Apples and Oranges.
DC is currently building a 6 billion dollar Metro expansion that equals half of Marta's entire system to put it into perspective. That will put D.C's total rail coverage at 406.3 miles and 158 stations. How is DC paying for this expansion? Almost completely by tolls on the Dulles Toll Road which is exactly how it should be.
People here don't like paying tolls, even when they go to roads. There would be armed revolt if you tried to force people to pay tolls, and then applied the money to a rail system.
That's just not how we roll down here in the Deep South these days.
Guys lets get back to the OP, rather than this immature bickering which is largely becoming one-sided at this point.
This isn't city vs. city. The insults are getting old and doing nothing to help the OP. Go say things about us to make yourselves feel better elsewhere...
People here don't like paying tolls, even when they go to roads. There would be armed revolt if you tried to force people to pay tolls, and then applied the money to a rail system.
That's just not how we roll down here in the Deep South these days.
Damn straight. If the mass transit folks want to be taken seriously, they need to produce a model that is more self sufficient. MARTA is subsidized at an obscene level. The fares only cover 35% of the cost of the ride. Every time a rider steps on a a bus, the rest of the tax payers pay around $7 to cover the cost of their trip. Forget that mess.
If you want to toll roads, I'm all for it, but it should be kept to improve that particular road or connecting roads.
Thank you. That all makes sense. The bus link in Marietta is also very helpful. I know the DC area has those types of commuter buses for those who live outside metro DC area yet commute to DC for work. I didn't even think about asking about that.
Just a quick FYI,
Marietta has alot of zipcodes and unicorporated land. You will find large differences in different areas as to what Marietta is like.
I'm on the northeast side of town and not really prepared to offer particulars, so I'm hoping someone can chime in.
It is a really nice area, but not all Marietta areas are equal.
The bus system is there is you need it, but 9 times out of 10... if not more... you will find hoping into your car to be more convenient. The freeways clear up inside the I-285. It gets really congested from cars traveling to and exiting on 285.
The bad thing is the downtown connector (if your going downtown and not midtown). It is where 75 and 85 merge together. Traffic is just atrocious. The only thing is... its also very short, so many people just stomach the traffic knowing they aren't traveling very far anyways.
If you do the bus thing... don't just look at the local bus, CCT. I would look at our regional xpress system. They are express commuter buses that typically have one stop out of town and drive straight to downtown and do one small circulation loop downtown. Xpress GA - System Map I think someone posted this earlier, but I was afraid it might have gotten buried.
The xpress system has some CCT express routes, but it also has others run by the GRTA and Gwinnett County for the northeast side of town.
Damn straight. If the mass transit folks want to be taken seriously, they need to produce a model that is more self sufficient. MARTA is subsidized at an obscene level. The fares only cover 35% of the cost of the ride. Every time a rider steps on a a bus, the rest of the tax payers pay around $7 to cover the cost of their trip. Forget that mess.
If you want to toll roads, I'm all for it, but it should be kept to improve that particular road or connecting roads.
This post highlights the vast difference in thinking between many people in Atlanta compared to those cities the Atlanta region wants to emulate in other more progressive parts of the country. The biggest lesson people will have to learn in Atlanta is if you want to build urban infrastructure, someone has to pay for the infrastructure and the whole region will be better because of it. You can't complain about traffic, lack of sidewalks, and a low densely built environment while at the same time not wanting to pay for improvements. People will see very fast as the region gets more crowded and needs urban upgrades that it's very expensive to function in a dense environment. Why do you think the most expensive places are higher density regions? NYC, DC, Bay, Boston etc. It's not a coincidence.
Atlanta won't be cheap forever. Demand drives prices. The denser and more urban Atlanta gets, the more expensive the COL will be and people will have to eventually stomach paying for urban infrastructure. Or, Atlanta could stand still in time, but I don't think you want that do you?
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,485 posts, read 14,994,819 times
Reputation: 7333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest Of Deen
You need to stop comparing apples to oranges here. Washington is a metropolitan area that had it's transit system paid for by the American taxpayer, so duh, they're going to have a larger system than anyone but NYC.
Fixed that for you.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
