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Old 03-22-2013, 03:13 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Wait, is this a thread about transit or about density? Because seriously, I don't care how another city was built. What this city is building is a more livable environment. Density in itself does not equal good. I lived in SE Asia for several years and trust me, there is a dark side to density. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what Atlanta's density is as long as we have a kick ass city. If the density thing is too much for you, by all means, hop on the next plane to whatever city will satisfy that fetish. I'm sure everyone would be willing to chip in a $1 for the trip just to make. it. stop.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Wait, is this a thread about transit or about density?
The two are inter-related, right? It would behoove a transit planner to raise the issue of density if an agency were considering running heavy rail through western Montana, no?
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:17 PM
 
Location: 30080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Philadelphia is dense and walkable and costs probably about the same as Atlanta. The high COL in the cities you mentioned has more to do with the fact that they have a lot of high-income earners (and independent wealth, too).
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:22 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,469 posts, read 14,922,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The two are inter-related, right? It would behoove a transit planner to raise the issue of density if an agency were considering running heavy rail through western Montana, no?
Well, yes, they are but obviously Atlanta has the density level to handle transit as we've already had a metro system for 30 years. Also, residential density isn't the only consideration. It's not as if Atlanta sole purpose is to house people. There are nearly 400,000 people who work in the city, nearly 100,000 University students, two of the largest retail districts in the State, and at any given time hundreds of thousands of tourists and conventiongoers. On a normal day, that's 700,000 people who need to move around the city efficiently. On many days through the year that number reaches well over 1 million. So to sit here and have a debate about Atlanta's residential density (as if it's evenly 3500 ppsm over the entire city, which it's not) is silly and a waste of time.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
7,348 posts, read 6,484,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Well, that pretty much says it all right there.



Why would you equate a bus with the $500 lemon? I don't think that's the proper analogy. The bus is more like a base model Honda Civic. The streetcar is like a $50,000 Accord with all types of extra silly features that have no bearing on performance. You could get three Civics for the price of that Accord.

Comparing a streetcar to a subway line is like comparing that Accord to a Lear Jet.
And that's where your particular comparison breaks down. A streetcar over a bus isn't an extra silly feature, it's a far more usable, long-term, and long-term-cheaper system.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Well, yes, they are but obviously Atlanta has the density level to handle transit as we've already had a metro system for 30 years. Also, residential density isn't the only consideration. It's not as if Atlanta sole purpose is to house people. There are nearly 400,000 people who work in the city, nearly 100,000 University students, and at any given time hundreds of thousands of tourists and conventiongoers. On a normal day, that's 700,000 people who need to move around the city efficiently. On many days through the year that number reaches well over 1 million. So to sit here and have a debate about Atlanta's residential density (as if it's evenly 3500 ppsm over the entire city, which it's not) is silly and a waste of time.
I don't think it's a waste of time. Typically, high residential densitites lead to more intensive land use. And more intensive land use leads to more restrictive parking. And more restrictive parking leads to higher transit use. I don't think this point can really be overstated. You're less likely to own a car if you have nowhere to put it.

And the structural density of the CBD matters as well. It's also hard to boost transit ridership when it's too easy to drive. But I feel like you don't really think this point has much merit and that people will choose to take transit so long as it's accessible and the quality of service is high. But yet if you look at the cities with the highest transit ridership, they all have very dense CBDs that make off-street parking very expensive and on-street parking close to impossible. There's academic literature explaining the relationship between parking and transit use.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW View Post
And that's where your particular comparison breaks down. A streetcar over a bus isn't an extra silly feature, it's a far more usable, long-term, and long-term-cheaper system.
So let me put your complete fanboyness to the test...

Can you identify one downside to the streetcar?

Or is it perfect in every way, shape, and form?
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
7,348 posts, read 6,484,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So let me put your complete fanboyness to the test...

Can you identify one downside to the streetcar?

Or is it perfect in every way, shape, and form?
Not as fast as HRT. Less capacity than HRT. Can get involved in traffic accidents. More infrastructure needed than for a monorail. Some people dislike the overhead wires. 750vDC is less efficient than higher voltages and AC, but necessary due to safety and close clearances.

That's five.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:53 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,469 posts, read 14,922,050 times
Reputation: 7263
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think it's a waste of time. Typically, high residential densitites lead to more intensive land use. And more intensive land use leads to more restrictive parking. And more restrictive parking leads to higher transit use. I don't think this point can really be overstated. You're less likely to own a car if you have nowhere to put it.

And the structural density of the CBD matters as well. It's also hard to boost transit ridership when it's too easy to drive. But I feel like you don't really think this point has much merit and that people will choose to take transit so long as it's accessible and the quality of service is high. But yet if you look at the cities with the highest transit ridership, they all have very dense CBDs that make off-street parking very expensive and on-street parking close to impossible. There's academic literature explaining the relationship between parking and transit use.
Well we do manage to have 400,000 passengers a day (which is the 9th most in the country and 11th most for the continent). And this is for a system that basically only covers the area inside the perimeter that I'm sure you'll agree doesn't meet your standards above. Yes, residential density is important, but we're addressing that too and I think is a waste of time in a thread talking about transit in already high density areas. You are aware that the average density of the area within the Beltline is currently ~7000 ppsm, right?
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
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I don't even know why the claim is always made that streetcars cost less to operate than buses. Are we comparing streetcars to buses or buses to BRT?

Arlington County actually commissioned a study on this since they're proposing a streetcar along the Columbia Pike there.

Enhanced Bus Capital Cost - $4 million
Articulated Bus Capital Cost - $47 million
Streetcar Capital Cost - $214-$231 million

Enhanced Bus O&M Cost - $20.1 million
Articulated Bus O&M Cost - 19.4 million
Streetcar O&M Cost - $19.4 to $25.5 million

Source: Would Streetcars be Cheaper Than Buses on Columbia Pike? | Pike Spotter

Now this is the analysis of the Columbia Pike Transit Initiative, not some streetcar fanclub president who cherrypicks data. It's as close to an actual objective study as you can get.
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