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Old 04-30-2013, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
298 posts, read 372,307 times
Reputation: 348

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To add my two cents, from everything I've read while buses have an initial cheaper capital investment, over the long term they aren't as cost effective. They require more maintenance, higher cost of fuel, higher costs of manpower, etc. Regardless, the key is the stigma about buses. For better or worst there is a stigma about buses that there isn't with streetcars. Also, bus routes are not permanent and can change on the whims of budgets, whereas streetcars show a commitment and are something permanent that both developers and riders can rely on.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,731,164 times
Reputation: 5702
I don't think Bajan gets it. Demand riders will not ride buses period. That is the reason the fancy ATC bus will not work in Atlanta.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30 View Post
Now I agree developers are trying to cash in. I also agree that development is not based on JUST the development of the streetcar. Last, I agree if for some reason the system is not as successful as planned it could become a burden but the point that most make here is that it would take a lot more for a city or transit agency to just stop running a streetcar or any type of rail versus just eliminating a bus route that isn't productive.
So...if the streetcar isn't very productive, the city will invest more resources to make it work because the sunk costs are so great?

That's sort of like buying a new Jaguar and a penthouse condo under the reasoning that it will force you to work harder to make partner.

And what happens to the rest of the system when the transit agency is doing its all to keep a single streetcar line afloat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30 View Post
And you are probably right about having symbolic transit. But don't all GREAT cities have that? When you think of NYC transit you think of subways. Think Chicago and you think of The El. New Orleans and San Francisco and you think vintage streetcars. When you think ATL you think CAR TRAFFIC. I'm sure that is something that is wanting and needing to be changed. Other than London's double decker buses, what other cities can people think of a bus and think of that cities modes of transit as symbolic?
No, they don't. There's nothing "symbolic" about the El. It's absolutely functional down to the bone and was built for that purpose. Same goes for the NYC subway. New Orleans and San Francisco don't pretend like their cable/streetcars are practical and also didn't have to spend millions and millions of dollars to build them. The tracks and infrastructure were built a long time ago so it's not like it's a huge burden on taxpayers. Besides, nobody will ever associate Atlanta with streetcars. People don't think Atlanta and "heavy rail," so why would they think Atlanta and "streetcar?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfarley30 View Post
I didn't read it word for word no. But again facts are facts. The development of that area was directly related to the city planning a streetcar route through the area. As you stated developers jumped on it and knew that eventually there would be rail there. They didn't go to other areas of the city because the city stated that they were going to redevelope that area.... USING STREETCARS as the catalyst. The plans were BEFORE they development not after.
You aren't citing "facts." You're just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth. Did you not read the sentence saying that "development would have occurred irrespective of the streetcar?" How do you read that and then conclude that streetcars were a catalyst?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
Reputation: 15007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
I don't think Bajan gets it. Demand riders will not ride buses period. That is the reason the fancy ATC bus will not work in Atlanta.
It's more like you won't ride buses. Most people will ride any form of transit if its cost-effective and conserves time. And people will avoid any form of transit if its not cost-effective and does not conserve time.

One of the fundamentally flawed assumptions (and it is a big assumption) I think you're making is that people decide to ride transit for very superficial reasons (i.e., smooth ride, coolness, etc.). For cities with high transit ridership, the one thing they tend to have in common (other than relatively high population densities) is prohibitively expensive parking in their downtown cores. You just can't go to San Francisco and park in a $5 lot across the street from the Transamerica Building. You can't go to DC and park in a $5 lot across the street from the White House. You can't go to Manhattan and park in a $5 lot across the street from the Empire State Building. Those cities leave you with no practical choice but to take transit. The people that decide to drive into their downtown cores do so at incredible expense.

So if you're options for getting to work are (a) $2 bus ride and (b) $36 daily parking, you're going to see exponentially more people exercising option A. That's why you see buses in Northwest DC stuffed to the brim with white people. They'll get over any stigma associated with the bus as soon parking enforcement rips them a new one.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,731,164 times
Reputation: 5702
Quote:
It's more like you won't ride buses. Most people will ride any form of transit if its cost-effective and conserves time. And people will avoid any form of transit if its not cost-effective and does not conserve time.
Dude, my wife and I walk out my front door and catch the bus on the corner to the MARTA station. I am not afraid to ride the bus, I'm just stating the observations I have made riding bus routes in Atlanta. I'll ride the bus an hour to get somewhere, as long as I don't have to drive with these idiots on the roads of Atlanta. A lot of times I am the only white person on the bus.
Don't be getting on here talking crap. Take that stuff back to Brooklyn and spew your hate on their boards. You obviously have no idea about the stigma of buses in the south.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
Reputation: 15007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Dude, my wife and I walk out my front door and catch the bus on the corner to the MARTA station. I am not afraid to ride the bus, I'm just stating the observations I have made riding bus routes in Atlanta. I'll ride the bus an hour to get somewhere, as long as I don't have to drive with these idiots on the roads of Atlanta. A lot of times I am the only white person on the bus.
Don't be getting on here talking crap. Take that stuff back to Brooklyn and spew your hate on their boards. You obviously have no idea about the stigma of buses in the south.
The South is not the only region of the country where buses are stigmatized. Last time I checked, Las Vegas was not in the South. Nor was Minneapolis.

If Atlantans had to pay $36 for daily parking, they'd be on a bus or train in a New York minute.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,731,164 times
Reputation: 5702
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The South is not the only region of the country where buses are stigmatized. Last time I checked, Las Vegas was not in the South. Nor was Minneapolis.

If Atlantans had to pay $36 for daily parking, they'd be on a bus or train in a New York minute.
Have researched LA? Majority of LA bus riders are non-white.
Your right about raising the parking rates to encourage more transit use.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,938 posts, read 34,457,827 times
Reputation: 15007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Have researched LA? Majority of LA bus riders are non-white.
I have. I don't see your point. Los Angeles also has underpriced parking, which works against transit use.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:23 PM
 
348 posts, read 432,560 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
They're walking because the transit is too slow. What's the point of paying hundreds of millions of dollars for a streetcar you can outwalk? Are you under the impression that speed is one of the advantages of a streetcar over a bus?
No I never said speed was one of the advantages, that's what you keep arguing. And if that is the case with people being able to walk what would be the point of having any transit in that area? I think that is just the opinion of a few people that don't want to wait.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Again, you can't compare streetcars from the future to buses of yesteryear. You're assuming that the buses you see on the streets now are all that buses ever will be. If you put Las Vegas' new buses on Peachtree Street, I'm willing to bet that Atlantans would react the same way the residents of Las Vegas did.
A bus isn't going to change the perception of a bus. If that's the case lets put the Xpress style commuter buses on all local routes since they are nicer. A bus is a bus and people are going to have a stigma about it. Commuter buses and BRT buses will always do better than local buses. That doesn't mean we put them on a route that is only about 2 miles long. I've even said in past blogs that for Peachtree and route #110 that "specialized buses" should be used. But this is a route that is very long where the BRT buses you refer to would make a difference. But at the end of the day if the frequency isn't there you could put a space shuttle on the route and no one would ride it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So? What difference does that make? If Las Vegas had used a regular NYC bus, then it likely would not have had much success. But instead they chose a very rad, futuristic-looking bus that's rather indistiguishable from a train in outward appearance. And it worked. There's no reason why such success cannot be translated over into local routes that are planned for high(er) density. And I also don't see why a bus can't network with rail transit since buses do that every single day in New York, DC and Boston. In Boston, the Silver Line runs right into South Station, and transferring from the Red Line to its BRT is no different from transferring from one train to another. To say that buses can't be networked with rail is grasping at straws.
Again the type of bus doesn't mean nothing over the level of service. You are trying to make local routes into BRT routes and that wouldn't work. That means less stops for convience and extra money on specialized buses that isn't needed for local service. And who said that buses can't network with rail? That is the entire set up of MARTA.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I know about Marta. Ridden it many times. My point was that a new, sleek bus/streetcar could be given a totally new name with its own distinct-looking stops. The reason the Bolt Bus worked was because it was not called Greyhound and it originated from Downtown DC instead of the Greyhound Station (which was in a terrible neighborhood). Once they changed the branding, people started riding it. And you can change the branding of pretty much anything. Who would have ever thought the Bowery in Manhattan would be a cool place to live?
Again, you are trying to make it about branding and that's not the issue. The type of service you are mentioning isn't for short routes. It's for long commuter style routes.

http://www.rtcsnv.com/wp-content/the...(09-30-12).pdf

[LEFT][/LEFT]
[SIZE=2]First trips begin in each direction at 8:50 a.m. -first trips may not reach middle of route untilapproximately 9:30 a.m. [/SIZE]


That means this route takes about a hour and 20 minutes to run ONE WAY



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Again, we need to make a distinction between streetcars, heavy rail and light rail. Is it really necessary to post statistics on how heavy rail completely demolishes streetcar in pretty much every way that matters? And if you think that streetcars are any more permanent than bus routes, then you should tell me what happened to the 23 trolley that ran only a block away from where I grew up. It's a bus line now. So much for permanence. LOL.
What would be your point? It's known that HRT is better than streetcar transit for moving people. But the area between Centennial Park (COP) and MLK Memorial doesn't need that type of transit. Are you suggesting building a HRT shuttle like the S trains in NYC? One stop at COP, one at Peachtree Ctr, and one at MLK? How much more would that cost?!

And the lines were tore up during a time when the car was made a priority, which we have seen was a mistake, which is why a lot of cities are reinvesting in them. But how many times have steetcar lines been ended and pulled up compared to route changes on a bus?



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
And? They're still way slower than subways. And way slower than LRT with its own dedicated ROW..
Again, not about speed and competing with that type of transit. It seems like you aren't making the destinction between SC, LRT, and HRT and what each type is for.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It can still be blocked by traffic. And if one breaks down, your morning commute is eff-ed. What else you got?
A line down the middle of the street is better than a bus stuck behind a line of traffic and if something breaks down no matter what it is your commute is eff-ed. I have a lot more!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's not an inherent thing about streetcars. Buses can also be given signal priority.
Yes they can and I've stated that but most local routes aren't going to be given that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That makes no sense. It's ridiculously cheaper to give buses signal priority than it is to buy expensive streetcars, rip up the streets, etc. It's no comparison. It might take a few months to work out signal priority for a single bus route (if that) while it can take years to build a two-mile streetcar line. They're still not done with the streetcar line in DC.

So you're basically spending millions of more dollars for a technology that has no mobility advantage over a bus. And you're doing it all in the hopes of economic development that could just as easily be stimulated through tax incentives and proper zoning.
So putting that technology in 4 streetcars is cheaper than putting it in 600 buses?

And I agree that tax incentives and proper zoning help. Now tell the developers that you are doing that for areas like Campbellton Rd and Metro Pkwy and see how many jump! Not many. Now those are areas you should be arguing for your "very rad, futuristic-looking bus that's rather indistiguishable from a train in outward appearance."
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:52 PM
 
348 posts, read 432,560 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So...if the streetcar isn't very productive, the city will invest more resources to make it work because the sunk costs are so great?

That's sort of like buying a new Jaguar and a penthouse condo under the reasoning that it will force you to work harder to make partner.

And what happens to the rest of the system when the transit agency is doing its all to keep a single streetcar line afloat?
Look at MARTA and it's current rail system. They cut 41 bus routes to maintain some decent level of rail frequency. Rail, regardless of what type will always be a priority over buses because there was more invested into building and creating the service. If I invest more into any project than something else wouldn't you focus on that project versus something you didn't put a lot in? Heck, if I was dating a girl and invested more into one girl than the other why would I waste my time on a girl that I did little for versus a girl I spent more time with and got to know better? I'm choosing the one I've invested in more!



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
No, they don't. There's nothing "symbolic" about the El. It's absolutely functional down to the bone and was built for that purpose. Same goes for the NYC subway. New Orleans and San Francisco don't pretend like their cable/streetcars are practical and also didn't have to spend millions and millions of dollars to build them. The tracks and infrastructure were built a long time ago so it's not like it's a huge burden on taxpayers. Besides, nobody will ever associate Atlanta with streetcars. People don't think Atlanta and "heavy rail," so why would they think Atlanta and "streetcar?"
Here you just aren't making sense. Of course they are symbols of their respective cities. So what if they were build for a purpose. The WTC was a symbol of NYC but it was build for the purpose of being and office tower and functioned as such until 9/11. Now it's a symbol of freedom for NYC and the world. Again, I said when you thing about transportation symbols for each city you do think about what I mentioned. And of course things build a long time ago aren't going to cost what they do today. Tell those people that had the foresight to invest back then thank you. I've already made it clear what people think of when they think of Atlanta. I never said it would change but having multiple options for transit in a city known for cars is a good thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
You aren't citing "facts." You're just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth. Did you not read the sentence saying that "development would have occurred irrespective of the streetcar?" How do you read that and then conclude that streetcars were a catalyst?
Please tell me why I'm not citing facts? I'm citing facts that were cited for the page I got the info from? And yes I read your comment. It just says development WOULD HAVE occured, which I've stated is the case when looking at areas around CBD. Now, the question is HOW MUCH would have occured without the streetcar versus having the streetcar there or the planning for it? I'm sure Sweet Auburn would have eventually developed since it is close to downtown but how much faster did it increase development along Edgewood Ave? How much faster did the Beltline develop with talks of rail transit versus just being a park? Saying it would have developed is different from saying it has developed and more is coming.
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