Atlanta Streetcar (Downtown Loop) progress (Auburn, Morgan: trees, buildings, charge)

[#1MARTAFan]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Streetcar routes are more permanent than bus routes. That's the response to the reoccurring "why not a bus instead" suggestion. I lost direct bus access to my closest MARTA station overnight, but that doesn't happen with streetcars.

That is a good thing. While it might have sucked for you, it limits the risk to building a system that isn't used. The bus lanes are flexible and can be adjusted and added to meet needs of the region. If it is built with a dedicated bus lane, the risk of a route being discontinued is minimized. If anything, more routes likely would end up routed along this dedicated ROW which is great for those along the route.

Again, you get the same benefits, without the inflated costs and inability to make any adjustments. Heck, if a BRT dedicated lane isn't meeting the needs of the area, you can add a mile or two extension at an affordable price. If the streetcar system is a failure (which would be hard to do given the pathetically low ridership projections of just 1,250-1,500 unique daily riders), you can't extend it an additional 2 miles without investing $50-75 million.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan

Why would a streetcar on this route be good, but BRT wouldn't? BRT could operate in the same dedicated lanes as the streetcar. BRT routes could be added to the dedicated lanes more easily without having to add extensive and costly infrastructure work. BRT provides all of the transit benefits as the streetcar at a fraction of the cost.

I would much rather have 5 miles going in than a system that has a 1.3 mile reach and doesn't solve any transportation need. Imagine adding 4 miles on to the loop route. You could connect Turner Field to the existing line and extend the line up north to Georgia Tech, Coca-Cola and all of the way to the North Ave MARTA station for about the same price as this streetcar to nowhere.

Seriously. That would have been the start to a worthwhile system. Once you get a dedicated ROW for these bus routes, you could add spur routes on/off the lanes. Heck, once this system got enough ridership, you could eventually convert to a streetcar/light should that ever become necessary. However, at that point, you have a good system in place and some built up political capital to prove the usefulness of the system. Instead, we are building a line just 1.3 miles in reach that is projected to have just 2,500 boardings in the hope that it will be the dangling carrot to move people to a place where they might be more likely to ride transit. C'mon son. This makes no sense.

gtcorndog is that you?

BRT needs right of way, Streetcar does not. Think you will find BRT is more expensive and destroys the density you are trying to create on this route.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

Streetcar routes are more permanent than bus routes. That's the response to the reoccurring "why not a bus instead" suggestion.

That's a veiled way of saying, "We just wanted the damned streetcar." Quit trying to pretend that it's a logical argument because it's not. I saw the streetcar route in my own neighborhood up and vanish overnight so they're not permanent. And if you've ever driven through West Philly, you should know that streetcar routes aren't any less confusing. You can't look at the tracks on Lancaster Avenue and tell where the trolley's going.

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

I lost direct bus access to my closest MARTA station overnight, but that doesn't happen with streetcars.

That has nothing to do with the bus and everything to do with demand. The high demand bus routes that run through Harlem aren't going anywhere. A streetcar route can (and they have) disappeared when the demand dries up.

And the insidious thing about streetcars is that they suck resources away from other areas of the transit system. Portland is now cutting back service in already underserved areas because the transit authority has made the streetcar such a priority. So I guess life is sweet for the people living in areas near the streetcar, but not so sweet for the lower income people that actually depend on the bus routes in their neighborhoods. We shouldn't have a two-tiered transportation system that puts the desires of the well-to-do over the needs of the poor.

[#1MARTAFan]

Originally Posted by jsvh

gtcorndog is that you?

BRT needs right of way, Streetcar does not. Think you will find BRT is more expensive and destroys the density you are trying to create on this route.

Streetcar doesn't need ROW? If it isn't being built with ROW, it is going to get stuck in traffic no different than a bus would. What is the benefit at this point other than satisfying the choo choo love of some?

Why would having reliable transit that moves at a faster speed kill density? Are the existing structures going to be bulldozed in favor of single family homes? Nope. While this might not encourage development as much as the choo choo would (which is debatable), it provides a great transportation solution at a reasonable price.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

IMO, if you want walkable communities, then you build neighborhoods that are human-scaled and walkable. You don't need transit to accomplish that (especially at the low densities Atlanta currently has). Once you reach Philadelphia-type density, then yes, congestion becomes a problem, but even most of Philadelphia lacks rapid rail transit. The notion that density will "choke the neighborhood to death" has no basis in reality.

Many of the areas in Atlanta that have been regarded as the most walkable and pedestrian friendly haven't had any rail transit at all. Examples include Virginia-Highland, Buckhead Village, Poncey-Highland, Little Five Points and East Atlanta.

At the same time, there are many areas that have had MARTA's heavy rail service for decades but have never taken off.

In short, if you have a district that is strong and vibrant, transit can be an enhancement -- consider Midtown, central Perimeter, or the Lenox corridor in Buckhead. However, rail alone is typically not transformative.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan

What is the benefit at this point other than satisfying the choo choo love of some?

Lower emissions.

[MDAllstar]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

Adams-Morgan and Mount Pleasant still don't have heavy rail lines. The residents there use the buses.

Adams Morgan, Washington, DC - Google Maps

Atlanta is light years away from this type of development so rail transit is even less of an imperative there.

Adams Morgan is adding two different streetcar lines though.

See below:

Line 2 = Alabama Ave. to Woodley Park
Line 8 = Woodley Park to Brookland-CUA

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/w...ransit-Map.jpg

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan

Streetcar doesn't need ROW? If it isn't being built with ROW, it is going to get stuck in traffic no different than a bus would. What is the benefit at this point other than satisfying the choo choo love of some?

Father Time will ultimately kill this streetcar fad.

Streetcars take a long time to build. I remember when they started laying the tracks for the DC streetcar in 2009. They're still not done and nobody really knows when the first streetcar will be up and running. With Metrorail, I think people were more willing to deal with the grueling construction process because: (1) the train is really, really fast and (2) the train runs to suburban areas, including Pentagon City Mall and distant suburban job centers. It's easy to look back now and say, "Yeah, that was worth it." But with the streetcar, you spend hundreds of millions and years tearing up the streets for a route that goes less than two miles at the same pace (perhaps slower) as a bus. When you talk about repeating that process for 60 miles worth of routes, and spending billions of dollars in the process, I just don't think the politics will let it happen.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by MDAllstar

Adams Morgan is adding two different streetcar lines though.

See below:

Line 2 = Alabama Ave. to Woodley Park
Line 8 = Woodley Park to Brookland-CUA

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/w...ransit-Map.jpg

What does that have to do with rail transit that's currently not there?

It's actually a really dumb idea to put streetcar lines in Adams-Morgan. First, the Circulator already runs up there and it's well ridden. Second, the neighborhood can't really get much denser than it already is, so the "development" argument doesn't come into play here. Third, the yuppies in Adams-Morgan already ride the local buses so they don't need any additional incentive to hop onto transit. And fourth, the streetcar will do nothing but tear up the streets and cause major traffic delays in neighborhoods that are already dense and vibrant while adding very little in the way of a fast and effective mode of transportation.

If they're going to cause more grief with construction along 18th or Columbia (as if there hasn't been enough already), they should truly make it worth it and save all of the headache for a real Metro heavy rail line.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by JPD

Lower emissions.

Run natural gas buses along Edgewood Avenue. Problem solved. Saved $100 million.