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Old 10-04-2012, 09:52 AM
 
1,114 posts, read 1,939,659 times
Reputation: 700

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
How can you not make money on a toll road, or any road for that matter?

Especially one that's already been built?

Because for once they are actually able to do some accounting on it. All that added camera equipment/contractors/websites/billing systems created a separate measurable cost which they suddenly care about. Not a ton of people squawk about regular maintenance costs of I85 b/c that's buried in DOT budgets. No one measures traffic to figure out if gas taxes are covering expenses on our freeways b/c profit isn't the goal.

It probably would have turned a profit (and the ire of commuters) if Deal had kept rates as originally planned.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:17 AM
 
9,907 posts, read 6,897,659 times
Reputation: 3012
I don't think people realize how expensive roads are. That LBJ project looks great and of will be a great temporary solution for a couple decades. But that project alone costs $2.7 Billion. We could fund almost the entire transit component of Tsplost with that. Clifton MARTA & Beltline included.

Obviously we need roads. But they are expensive and do not scale well! Adding an extra train vs multi million and billion dollar lane expansions / interchange overhauls should be a no-brainier for long term cost effectiveness.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:27 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,611,285 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
I don't think people realize how expensive roads are. That LBJ project looks great and of will be a great temporary solution for a couple decades. But that project alone costs $2.7 Billion. We could fund almost the entire transit component of Tsplost with that. Clifton MARTA & Beltline included.

Obviously we need roads. But they are expensive and do not scale well! Adding an extra train vs multi million and billion dollar lane expansions / interchange overhauls should be a no-brainier for long term cost effectiveness.
Yes, but how many people daily would use the Beltline and the Clifton Corridor? Clifton Corridor was expecting about 15,000 daily trips (or 7,500 round trip rides). I'm not sure on the completed beltline, but I'd expect something no more than 30,000-40,000 (If I'm wrong on this, please link to better numbers). That is about what you get for $2 billion.

For $2 billion on the highway construction, you significantly improve the commute of 200,000+ people.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,244 posts, read 4,376,829 times
Reputation: 2723
Lets not leave lifestyle and esthetics out of this. You can build these gigantor highways but they DOMINATE the landscape. It is almost like building a large wall through the middle of town.

When you add rail to the mix you do add a perk / benefit to living in the area. Not everyone agrees, but who doesn't love going up to DC or NYC and not having to use a car to get around.

These things are not the most important things to consider in traffic management but to ignore them is to make a choice to put quality of life on the backburner.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,154 posts, read 16,152,860 times
Reputation: 4894
Freeways have a negative impact on property values while transit has a positive effect. Adding more lanes to a freeway with maxed out ROW means tax paying businesses will have to be bought and torn down. Who knows if those jobs will come back? While Commuter Rail can use the existing ROW, maybe add another rail, and build simple platforms. Little to no negative effect on the surrounding businesses or environment.
Quote:
Yes, but how many people daily would use the Beltline and the Clifton Corridor? Clifton Corridor was expecting about 15,000 daily trips (or 7,500 round trip rides). I'm not sure on the completed beltline, but I'd expect something no more than 30,000-40,000 (If I'm wrong on this, please link to better numbers). That is about what you get for $2 billion.

For $2 billion on the highway construction, you significantly improve the commute of 200,000+ people.
Here he goes on his Clifton Corridor rant AGAIN!
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Decatur, GA
4,908 posts, read 3,707,121 times
Reputation: 2465
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
Yes, but how many people daily would use the Beltline and the Clifton Corridor? Clifton Corridor was expecting about 15,000 daily trips (or 7,500 round trip rides). I'm not sure on the completed beltline, but I'd expect something no more than 30,000-40,000 (If I'm wrong on this, please link to better numbers). That is about what you get for $2 billion.

For $2 billion on the highway construction, you significantly improve the commute of 200,000+ people.
Define improve? A 30 second trip time reduction? $2 billion for thirty-seconds is a colossal waste. But $2 billion for providing a stable, reliable transit option so people don't even HAVE to drive any more?
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:45 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,611,285 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW View Post
But $2 billion for providing a stable, reliable transit option so a small, small number of people don't even HAVE to drive any more is still a waste.
Fixed that for you.

PS: Cite your source for the 30 second improvement.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,154 posts, read 16,152,860 times
Reputation: 4894
So are we suppose to keep adding lanes every 5 years to keep up with demand until 75 & 85 are more than 20 lanes wide? The time and congestion savings don't last. What is your solution corndog? Thought you were a supporter of commuter rail?
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:54 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,611,285 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
So are we suppose to keep adding lanes every 5 years to keep up with demand until 75 & 85 are more than 20 lanes wide? The time and congestion savings don't last. What is your solution corndog? Thought you were a supporter of commuter rail?
I don't dislike it. I don't think that the argument for it is based on efficiency. I jumped on someone who tried to make the point that commuter rail is efficient. IT IS NOT EFFICIENT. The logical argument would be to make a case that it provides an alternative and could over decades help reshape development patterns and that benefit outweighs the money it will hemorrhage and the subsidies it will require.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:56 AM
 
9,907 posts, read 6,897,659 times
Reputation: 3012
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
Yes, but how many people daily would use the Beltline and the Clifton Corridor? Clifton Corridor was expecting about 15,000 daily trips (or 7,500 round trip rides). I'm not sure on the completed beltline, but I'd expect something no more than 30,000-40,000 (If I'm wrong on this, please link to better numbers).
Yes. In initial ridership. But what about decades from now? You think the interstate to Gwinnett and other suburban counties carried many people when it was built? Heck no. The ENTIRE population of Gwinnett county was 32,320 in 1950! You keep adding lanes and they will keep filling up with traffic.

And we have already been over how transit is competitive if not cheaper to build than roads per "rider" in the streetcar thread.
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