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Old 10-10-2012, 10:39 AM
 
2,407 posts, read 2,612,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
That is what I was trying to get at, before corndog attacked my comments like a troll so I gave up. If we, the citizens of Atlanta city proper that want to see more transit use, denser development, cleaner environment, less car-use, a big way to encourage that is to increase parking rates and decrease parking spots making it more expensive for Dunwoody Donna or Sandy Springs Susy to drive her SUV to Midtown and watch a show at the Fox.
Attacked your comments like a troll? I just was giving you a lesson on the freedom and supply and demand. It might be your belief that you know what is best for everyone and that you could engineer a utopian, transit-based society by levying anti-free market regulations to shape the behavior of Atlantans, but I believe in freedom, liberty and letting people choose what is best for them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:09 AM
 
3,208 posts, read 4,509,441 times
Reputation: 1732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
So San Fransisco made the city more transit/walk friendly by forcing dense development and better transit acess. That proves my point.

I wasn't arguing over free markets. My argument was Atlanta is ready to force people out of cars as it is built now.
Someone who favors strict regulation on the number of parking spaces would say that by constraining supply of parking, you encourage the development to be denser and more walkable/transit-friendly. It's part of a cycle. By not constraining supply of parking, you end up with more aut-oriented development.

If the argument is that intown Atlanta will be left behind if it passes these sorts of regulations, well, I guess that's intown Atlanta's problem. I could see that happening to some extent, but there already is a terrific amount of existing parking infrastructure here to use; I wouldn't really ever see lack of it being a big problem. I'd also point out that the regulations are already in place, just a lot less strict than other cities.

If the argument is that Atlanta's transit system isn't widespread enough for this to work, we could always do what other cities do and limit the areas of the regulations to areas that ARE well-served by transit. These problems have all been thought of and worked out by other cities; Atlanta is really just behind the curve here (although some people are A-OK with that, I realize).

I'm actually kind of surprised owners of existing major developments don't favor more stringent parking limits. Their parking garages would instantly become a lot more valuable.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,566 posts, read 8,629,542 times
Reputation: 5065
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
That is what I was trying to get at, before corndog attacked my comments like a troll so I gave up. If we, the citizens of Atlanta city proper that want to see more transit use, denser development, cleaner environment, less car-use, a big way to encourage that is to increase parking rates and decrease parking spots making it more expensive for Dunwoody Donna or Sandy Springs Susy to drive her SUV to Midtown and watch a show at the Fox.
So, how is Dunwoody Donna suppose to get to the Fox to see a musical on a Wednesday night? Dress up, drive to a train station, get off at North Avenue, walk up to the Fox, walk back to the station, take the train to a big parking lot and drive back to her in Dunwoody? Maybe a few would do that. Others? Not so much. It's too much of a pain. The result? The Fox loses money. That's not a good result. I betcha that 50% or more of the folks that go to the Fox for performances are from outside of the urban core. Most of those folks don't feel like going through the hassle. This is Atlanta. Transit is great, but you cannot force it on folks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:18 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,488,138 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
That is what I was trying to get at, before corndog attacked my comments like a troll so I gave up. If we, the citizens of Atlanta city proper that want to see more transit use, denser development, cleaner environment, less car-use, a big way to encourage that is to increase parking rates and decrease parking spots making it more expensive for Dunwoody Donna or Sandy Springs Susy to drive her SUV to Midtown and watch a show at the Fox.
How the heck is that going to encourage developers to do anything but build in low density burbs? You seem to think the high price tag of driving comes BEFORE the dense transit development when that has never been the case. The dense development and transit were already in place. Atlanta doesn't have what it needs to get people out of cars.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:27 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,488,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by testa50 View Post
Someone who favors strict regulation on the number of parking spaces would say that by constraining supply of parking, you encourage the development to be denser and more walkable/transit-friendly. It's part of a cycle. By not constraining supply of parking, you end up with more aut-oriented development.

If the argument is that intown Atlanta will be left behind if it passes these sorts of regulations, well, I guess that's intown Atlanta's problem. I could see that happening to some extent, but there already is a terrific amount of existing parking infrastructure here to use; I wouldn't really ever see lack of it being a big problem. I'd also point out that the regulations are already in place, just a lot less strict than other cities.

If the argument is that Atlanta's transit system isn't widespread enough for this to work, we could always do what other cities do and limit the areas of the regulations to areas that ARE well-served by transit. These problems have all been thought of and worked out by other cities; Atlanta is really just behind the curve here (although some people are A-OK with that, I realize).

I'm actually kind of surprised owners of existing major developments don't favor more stringent parking limits. Their parking garages would instantly become a lot more valuable.

A few things.

1. Atlanta is not ready because the development and transit access don't support it overall. The areas that are good and dense with transit don't really have much parking anyway and are so far and in-between that the law would be moot.

2. Other cities that are high density and good transit cities already had that infrastructure before cars and maintained it. They didn't implement rules after development got sprawlly because it never got that bad or the city never let it get that bad. Either land restrictions by geography or otherwise prevented it. Sunbelt cities have to build the infrastructure before they enact anti sprawl laws or they risk encouraging more sprawl.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:33 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,488,138 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
So, how is Dunwoody Donna suppose to get to the Fox to see a musical on a Wednesday night? Dress up, drive to a train station, get off at North Avenue, walk up to the Fox, walk back to the station, take the train to a big parking lot and drive back to her in Dunwoody? Maybe a few would do that. Others? Not so much. It's too much of a pain. The result? The Fox loses money. That's not a good result. I betcha that 50% or more of the folks that go to the Fox for performances are from outside of the urban core. Most of those folks don't feel like going through the hassle. This is Atlanta. Transit is great, but you cannot force it on folks.
Thank you.

Some people think Atlanta is Boston or Chicago where transit is reachable and frequent all over even in the burbs.

Here people have to park at stations and ride in and if they have a bus come by their home they have wait 20-30 at a time for it and then wait another 20-30 just to get to the train.

We don't live in DC folks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,167 posts, read 16,168,399 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
So, how is Dunwoody Donna suppose to get to the Fox to see a musical on a Wednesday night? Dress up, drive to a train station, get off at North Avenue, walk up to the Fox, walk back to the station, take the train to a big parking lot and drive back to her in Dunwoody? Maybe a few would do that. Others? Not so much. It's too much of a pain. The result? The Fox loses money. That's not a good result. I betcha that 50% or more of the folks that go to the Fox for performances are from outside of the urban core. Most of those folks don't feel like going through the hassle. This is Atlanta. Transit is great, but you cannot force it on folks.
That is an option. North Ave Station is 3 store fronts from the Fox Theater.
Quote:
Attacked your comments like a troll? I just was giving you a lesson on the freedom and supply and demand. It might be your belief that you know what is best for everyone and that you could engineer a utopian, transit-based society by levying anti-free market regulations to shape the behavior of Atlantans, but I believe in freedom, liberty and letting people choose what is best for them.
That's because I am a socialist; ban cars, their evil! I was simply implying that if we want to reduce car dependency, then raising parking rates is a good first step, not saying that the private owners of those lots should be forced to do it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:08 PM
 
3,208 posts, read 4,509,441 times
Reputation: 1732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
A few things.

1. Atlanta is not ready because the development and transit access don't support it overall. The areas that are good and dense with transit don't really have much parking anyway and are so far and in-between that the law would be moot.

2. Other cities that are high density and good transit cities already had that infrastructure before cars and maintained it. They didn't implement rules after development got sprawlly because it never got that bad or the city never let it get that bad. Either land restrictions by geography or otherwise prevented it. Sunbelt cities have to build the infrastructure before they enact anti sprawl laws or they risk encouraging more sprawl.
I disagree on both points. Atlanta already has the parking cap; it ought to be made a bit more stringent. The sky won't fall as a result, just like it hasn't fallen in all the other cities across the country that have done the exact same thing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,566 posts, read 8,629,542 times
Reputation: 5065
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
That is an option. North Ave Station is 3 store fronts from the Fox Theater.
So is riding a bicycle from Dunwoody to the Fox. But who WANTS to do that? The performances will eventually simply move to Gwinnett, North Fulton or Cobb. The symphony probably should have followed the opera and ballet to Cobb years ago. Not my preference, but they probably should have...
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:21 PM
JPD
 
11,872 posts, read 14,474,829 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
So is riding a bicycle from Dunwoody to the Fox. But who WANTS to do that? The performances will eventually simply move to Gwinnett, North Fulton or Cobb. The symphony probably should have followed the opera and ballet to Cobb years ago. Not my preference, but they probably should have...
OK, now I've heard everything. You're saying that people shouldn't take MARTA from places that are well served by MARTA (Sandy Springs and Dunwoody) to other places that are well served by MARTA (the Fox)?

Under what circumstances do you think someone should use MARTA?
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