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Old 10-22-2012, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Johns Creek area
9,583 posts, read 8,666,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
How do you figure that?

Doesn't it take more resources to send services like electricity and water way out to the burbs vs in a compact area? Not to mentions the extra miles of road that have to maintained and built?
Nope. Depends on how far away you are from the resources. Last I checked, McGinnis Ferry in Forsyth is a lot better maintained than Peachtree is in Atlanta.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:15 PM
 
1,343 posts, read 1,940,483 times
Reputation: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtcorndog View Post
I understand what you are saying just fine. My point is that it, more times than not, are the people who demand these road projects. The majority tends to get what it wants. That in effect is the free market influencing governmental policies and spending. Is it pure free market? Absolutely not, but there is no such thing as a completely free market. Once the roads or other infrastructure are built, how things develop is pretty free market, however.

So you want to tax the people who likely live outside the city to pay for the lifestyle choices of those who live inside the city? That doesn't seem very equitable.

I want to tax those who come into the city, utilize the services of the city including the transportation infrastructure yet who pay no taxes to support it.

People demand road projects because we live in a car centric society...but we live in a car centric society largely because of the incentives of government to employ loans to soliders coming home from WWII outside of cities, new construction, pay outs to incentivize road construction and policies in the suburbs that don't allow for mixed use developments.

There is NOTHING about the suburbs which is free market. People just naturally gravitate toward what they know...hell I grew up in Jonesboro and I've lived in Woodstock, Duluth, and Riverdale (god help me). I didn't even understand any of this until I moved to Athens, and it occurred to me...why don't other towns develop around their downtowns like this? (They once did...and the US government created policies which made the development of suburbia easier because that's what the policy makers in the 1950s-1980s thought was the future of America. They thought the sooner we can create environments like this the better. Suburbia allows for massive building projects by developments (the building lot is no longer the unit to development...acres and acres are), car companies can sell more cars, supply chains to far flung stores are stretched longer distances, oil companies encouraged this too (not only do they make money on cars but on road construction), mortgage companies could sell mortgages on these massive suburban developments...the list goes on.
What we learned recently however is that we destroyed the ability to walk safely from location to location, we have created poorly defined social spaces (the parking lot of a massive big box is not a valid substitute for defining space in a city or small town), we have demeaned our architecture (architecture has become so cheap and generic, ornamentation and craftsmanship is gone...because such pleasantries are for areas where people are on foot...if you whizz by at 60 mph you can't tell what you are looking at anyhow).

The metro Atlanta area is wholly dependent on roads and the automobile. There are costs to government/taxpayer, to people who HAVE to spend money on transportation instead of being able to walk from one place to another, there is the reliance on supply chains which are very vulnerable to disruption and finally there is the decline of our civic space and community. Who we are and how we live is something that we not only live in today, but pass down to our children. Is this a sample of this generation's civic legacy?
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:25 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,490,375 times
Reputation: 409
Yeah, it's been proven that suburb development is a product of very prosperous and rich post WW2 America. We could only afford to build burbs like that then and didn't worry about maximizing land. Now we are on the hole and need to develope smarter like other countries.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,285,724 times
Reputation: 4205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prytania View Post
I want to tax those who come into the city, utilize the services of the city including the transportation infrastructure yet who pay no taxes to support it.

People demand road projects because we live in a car centric society...but we live in a car centric society largely because of the incentives of government to employ loans to soliders coming home from WWII outside of cities, new construction, pay outs to incentivize road construction and policies in the suburbs that don't allow for mixed use developments.

There is NOTHING about the suburbs which is free market. People just naturally gravitate toward what they know...hell I grew up in Jonesboro and I've lived in Woodstock, Duluth, and Riverdale (god help me). I didn't even understand any of this until I moved to Athens, and it occurred to me...why don't other towns develop around their downtowns like this? (They once did...and the US government created policies which made the development of suburbia easier because that's what the policy makers in the 1950s-1980s thought was the future of America. They thought the sooner we can create environments like this the better. Suburbia allows for massive building projects by developments (the building lot is no longer the unit to development...acres and acres are), car companies can sell more cars, supply chains to far flung stores are stretched longer distances, oil companies encouraged this too (not only do they make money on cars but on road construction), mortgage companies could sell mortgages on these massive suburban developments...the list goes on.
What we learned recently however is that we destroyed the ability to walk safely from location to location, we have created poorly defined social spaces (the parking lot of a massive big box is not a valid substitute for defining space in a city or small town), we have demeaned our architecture (architecture has become so cheap and generic, ornamentation and craftsmanship is gone...because such pleasantries are for areas where people are on foot...if you whizz by at 60 mph you can't tell what you are looking at anyhow).

The metro Atlanta area is wholly dependent on roads and the automobile. There are costs to government/taxpayer, to people who HAVE to spend money on transportation instead of being able to walk from one place to another, there is the reliance on supply chains which are very vulnerable to disruption and finally there is the decline of our civic space and community. Who we are and how we live is something that we not only live in today, but pass down to our children. Is this a sample of this generation's civic legacy?
But the water tower has a happy face! What more do you want j/k


I will say though... new urbanism isn't just helping rethink urban spaces, but also suburban spaces. We can build suburbs differently to be more functional as well. Afterall, most of Atlanta (proper) is older suburban housing. So we don't have to feed a narrative that it is just suburb vs urban, as opposed to that we built thing w/o thinking or fixing some of the consequences.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,209 posts, read 16,238,370 times
Reputation: 4923
Quote:
We can build suburbs differently to be more functional as well. Afterall, most of Atlanta (proper) is older suburban housing. So we don't have to feed a narrative that it is just suburb vs urban, as opposed to that we built thing w/o thinking or fixing some of the consequences.
It would be great if a transit station was at the center of those new-urbanism developments in the suburbs. That way concentrating density around transit so those that want to use transit can and those that prefer cars can live in the typical subdivisions.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:52 PM
 
1,343 posts, read 1,940,483 times
Reputation: 930
Well I'm under no impression that everyone will live in a city. There is nothing wrong at all with small towns or even suburbia...but you can create traditional small town Americana along rail routes.
We don't have to all live in the same areas but we can do it better than we have been.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,458 posts, read 7,285,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
It would be great if a transit station was at the center of those new-urbanism developments in the suburbs. That way concentrating density around transit so those that want to use transit can and those that prefer cars can live in the typical subdivisions.
Agreed.

The city planning documents for Lilburn were interesting before the housing collapse.

If plans moved ahead for commuter rail they wanted to redevelop a parcel next to the city park and town center as high end commuter townhomes, but without the commuter rail stop it was just going to be fewer detached homes. Either way the town center would be much improved, yet still small and quiet.

but if you follow the routes... in many spots pockets of density already exist and many of the single family home neighborhoods are no less dense than single family homes ITP. The problem is often road connectivity/walkability and retail proximity.

Alot of other nuances I'm often concerned about, that many miss or don't think about is preventing what happened to Buford hwy ITP. It is getting much harder to plop down an apartment complex and have multiple entrances onto a single road. In some cases apartment complexes share the same entrance. It will prevent the number of bus stops and need for street crossing points.

I just like spotting it out, because we can still find ways of fixing past problems as new areas build for the first time. but it will still be mostly autocentric and hot huge game changers.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 21,936,601 times
Reputation: 3853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prytania View Post
I want to tax those who come into the city, utilize the services of the city including the transportation infrastructure yet who pay no taxes to support it.
Not unreasonable. I'll be traveling into the City of Atlanta this evening for the first time in over a month, and perhaps the sales tax I pay will justify my incursion into Atlanta's economic structure.

Forgive me for patronizing an Atlanta business.

Quote:
There is NOTHING about the suburbs which is free market.
There is nothing in the WORLD which is truly free market.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Chicago
763 posts, read 678,059 times
Reputation: 436
Vibrancy, businesses benefit from foot traffic and lowers their advertisement costs (possibly), has increased demand in other cities San Fran, NY, Chi and increases property values. Density is better for the environment because it creates an incentive to either walk, take public transit or small motor vehicle to make small trips.
I feel like density breeds culture to an extent as well but that's subjective. It's also cheaper to create density than support expensive utility lines and support them in the future. It's costly to stretch lines out for more miles than should be necessary....
I don't know... I'm just a recent college grad.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:43 PM
 
6,795 posts, read 6,614,770 times
Reputation: 5411
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARaider08 View Post
Vibrancy, businesses benefit from foot traffic and lowers their advertisement costs (possibly), has increased demand in other cities San Fran, NY, Chi and increases property values. Density is better for the environment because it creates an incentive to either walk, take public transit or small motor vehicle to make small trips.
I feel like density breeds culture to an extent as well but that's subjective. It's also cheaper to create density than support expensive utility lines and support them in the future. It's costly to stretch lines out for more miles than should be necessary....
I don't know... I'm just a recent college grad.
No, you are exactly right. Suburbs just creates more isolation. Maybe humans are just becoming more socially isolated? I don't know...Suburbs are just boring to me...

Density has more things to do in a much smaller area so more people tend to do those things. Density in a way breeds culture to an extent.
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