What's So Great About Density? (Atlanta, Dallas: how much, disposal, live in)
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I'd rather have a hyper-dense urban core then dense suburbs. Atlanta should focus on Downtown and Midtown and 1 mile outside of this similar to Chicago which has an extremely dense core and sparse suburbs outside of this core.
Atlanta should do this why? So it somehow validates the city in your eyes as being first rate?
Atlanta should do this why? So it somehow validates the city in your eyes as being first rate?
So the city can have a lively and energizing core. Right now, it's core is relatively pathetic for a metropolitan area of it's size.
With having a hyper-dense core, more people are walking the streets, more things are going on, and more people will be willing to visit a city with a lively core.
This in turn helps MARTA with it's issues because more people are going to be using it's rail system and eventually, they may be able to make the trains run 24 hours because there's a reason to.
Is there a wonder that the greatest cities in the world(NYC, London, Paris, etc) have very vibrant cores?
Why are people here in Atlanta AFRAID to walk in downtown at night? Because there is no one else walking, but bums. With more density in the area, more people are walking and thus, people won't become as scared to walk the streets at night.
That's exactly why cities like New York, Chicago, and LA(Hollywood BLVD) can be so fun at night. There's so much other people walking out at night and the bars are packed.
Crescent Ave. is the closest thing Atlanta has to vibrancy. I'll admit, 11:00 on a Friday night, that little street impressed me with the amount of people walking. Now can we have that on other major avenues in the city everyday, at most hours of the day?
I'd rather have a hyper-dense urban core then dense suburbs. Atlanta should focus on Downtown and Midtown and 1 mile outside of this similar to Chicago which has an extremely dense core and sparse suburbs outside of this core.
Ok... few things
-we aren't Chicago. We have to work in the context of the existing frame our city has.
Chicago actually has dense residential neighborhoods wrapped around its core for a few miles. Their core isn't as dense without the large amount of residents within easy access to it. The problem is we can't soley become like that, because we have tons of lower density single family home neighborhoods.... many with old character and historical district status that we can't build over. Now our core can add residential areas, but it will never quite be what Chicago is in the same way.
Chicago also has dense neighborhoods and nodes along the lake front a pretty good distance away from downtown, like Evanston.
But anyways my point is we are a spread out city and we have to face that reality. We have to create attractive nodes for entertainment, public spaces, and work region wide so people don't need to commute as far. The economic realities and market demand caused by traffic congestion is already causing this to happen. I just want to it to happen in some areas in more organized nodes where we already have public infrastructure massed up and we aren't hurting it via zoning policy or not creating a few extra critical links in infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong... I understand you're wanting to build a lifestyle activity center... I want that too, but that in the core alone won't fix our regions problems.
-we aren't Chicago. We have to work in the context of the existing frame our city has.
Chicago actually has dense residential neighborhoods wrapped around its core for a few miles. Their core isn't as dense without the large amount of residents within easy access to it. The problem is we can't soley become like that, because we have tons of lower density single family home neighborhoods.... many with old character and historical district status that we can't build over. Now our core can add residential areas, but it will never quite be what Chicago is in the same way.
Chicago also has dense neighborhoods and nodes along the lake front a pretty good distance away from downtown, like Evanston.
But anyways my point is we are a spread out city and we have to face that reality. We have to create attractive nodes for entertainment, public spaces, and work region wide so people don't need to commute as far. The economic realities and market demand caused by traffic congestion is already causing this to happen. I just want to it to happen in some areas in more organized nodes where we already have public infrastructure massed up and we aren't hurting it via zoning policy or not creating a few extra critical links in infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong... I understand you're wanting to build a lifestyle activity center... I want that too, but that in the core alone won't fix our regions problems.
Agreed I said before the goal is to become walkable and more urban. A city don't have to look like Philly or Chicago to do this.
I think it's better to focus on key areas in Atlanta and in the suburbs. DT, MT, West MT, Buckhead, infill the leafy neighborhoods without destroying their charter. Many suburban DTs can follow Decatur's lead. Not all of the suburbs should be urban "most shouldn't" but the CIDs make sense. This is a sun belt metro we have work in a sunbelt way.
-we aren't Chicago. We have to work in the context of the existing frame our city has.
Chicago actually has dense residential neighborhoods wrapped around its core for a few miles. Their core isn't as dense without the large amount of residents within easy access to it. The problem is we can't soley become like that, because we have tons of lower density single family home neighborhoods.... many with old character and historical district status that we can't build over. Now our core can add residential areas, but it will never quite be what Chicago is in the same way.
Chicago also has dense neighborhoods and nodes along the lake front a pretty good distance away from downtown, like Evanston.
But anyways my point is we are a spread out city and we have to face that reality. We have to create attractive nodes for entertainment, public spaces, and work region wide so people don't need to commute as far. The economic realities and market demand caused by traffic congestion is already causing this to happen. I just want to it to happen in some areas in more organized nodes where we already have public infrastructure massed up and we aren't hurting it via zoning policy or not creating a few extra critical links in infrastructure.
Don't get me wrong... I understand you're wanting to build a lifestyle activity center... I want that too, but that in the core alone won't fix our regions problems.
Just because Atlanta is not a northeastern city does NOT mean that it shouldn't attempt to create a core that caters to more then just the business folks who work 9-5 shifts!
If Atlanta wants to SEPARATE itself from the sunbelt cities, it SHOULD attempt to more replicate the dense northeastern cities more then the other sunbelt cities.
Midtown is getting closer to this goal, but it still has ages to go, meanwhile, downtown is being more and more neglected. Five points is a ****ing dump and the center of a downtown should NOT be that way. This shows Atlanta doesn't give a damn about it's own historic core at all and shows me Atlanta does not want to improve it's core in anyway. Why else do private developers choose NOT to build in downtown? Because Atlanta does not care to improve it in anyway.
Every downtown, northeastern-like or not should be able to be livable. There should be a neighborhood grocery stores...there should be stay open later then 6 pm restaurants..there should be corner stores to pick up some snacks or booze real quick...there should people walking out at night and not worrying about whether or not someone is going to mug you because you are in a deserted city...there should be entertainment centers you can walk to and take a short train/bus ride too.
It's sad and I don't keep bringing up this density praise just so I can praise my ego with Atlanta. It's to legitimately improve this city.
Stop just trying to be a sunbelt city. Hell, so many people here want to claim Atlanta is the "New York of the south"...yet it's urban core is not even a 10th of what Manhattan is, not only in size, but amenities and things happening.
Who gives a damn if the skyline is long....Congrats, you have tall buildings...now where's the density to support life on the ground?
It's ****ing pathetic....it's either live in the suburbs or don't live here at all. That's the impression I get from living here in Atlanta for 8 years now.
I would LOVE to live in a dense Atlanta instead of a dense New York because there ARE things I love about Atlanta more so then New York, but currently, Atlanta does not have what I yearn and desire, thus I'll keep bashing Atlanta, at least until I move out of here, then I over the years, I'll see if Atlanta improves over time, which I'm sure it will. I'm mainly concerned about how fast that change will occur.
Atlanta does not need hyper-density like New York, but density more a long the lines of a constant 20k-40k psm in the urban core would be more then enough for me.
EDIT: Downtown in 2010 measured approximately 26,000 residents in 4 square miles(I don't know if is including O4W and Castlebury hill, i think it is)....that is roughly 6k psm....now imagine if it was 5x that, downtown Atlanta streets would be much more active day and night, not bustling neccessarily, but at least a little more vibrant....
Last edited by Ant131531; 10-19-2012 at 01:43 AM..
Just because Atlanta is not a northeastern city does NOT mean that it shouldn't attempt to create a core that caters to more then just the business folks who work 9-5 shifts!
If Atlanta wants to SEPARATE itself from the sunbelt cities, it SHOULD attempt to more replicate the dense northeastern cities more then the other sunbelt cities.
Midtown is getting closer to this goal, but it still has ages to go, meanwhile, downtown is being more and more neglected. Five points is a ****ing dump and the center of a downtown should NOT be that way. This shows Atlanta doesn't give a damn about it's own historic core at all and shows me Atlanta does not want to improve it's core in anyway. Why else do private developers choose NOT to build in downtown? Because Atlanta does not care to improve it in anyway.
Every downtown, northeastern-like or not should be able to be livable. There should be a neighborhood grocery stores...there should be stay open later then 6 pm restaurants..there should be corner stores to pick up some snacks or booze real quick...there should people walking out at night and not worrying about whether or not someone is going to mug you because you are in a deserted city...there should be entertainment centers you can walk to and take a short train/bus ride too.
It's sad and I don't keep bringing up this density praise just so I can praise my ego with Atlanta. It's to legitimately improve this city.
Stop just trying to be a sunbelt city. Hell, so many people here want to claim Atlanta is the "New York of the south"...yet it's urban core is not even a 10th of what Manhattan is, not only in size, but amenities and things happening.
Who gives a damn if the skyline is long....Congrats, you have tall buildings...now where's the density to support life on the ground?
It's ****ing pathetic....it's either live in the suburbs or don't live here at all. That's the impression I get from living here in Atlanta for 8 years now.
I would LOVE to live in a dense Atlanta instead of a dense New York because there ARE things I love about Atlanta more so then New York, but currently, Atlanta does not have what I yearn and desire, thus I'll keep bashing Atlanta, at least until I move out of here, then I over the years, I'll see if Atlanta improves over time, which I'm sure it will. I'm mainly concerned about how fast that change will occur.
Atlanta does not need hyper-density like New York, but density more a long the lines of a constant 20k-40k psm in the urban core would be more then enough for me.
First off northeast cities are not god, Atlantans do not want Atlanta to become New York, Atlanta is a lot smaller than New York and Chicago, and has fair amount of amenities and things happening for it's size. Atlanta has an identity while becoming more urban it most maintain this. My advise to you is just move to New York or Chicago. 2nd LA is a sunbelt city and it has the most densely populated urban area in the country. Atlanta is not trying to be sunbelt city it is a sunbelt city, and no... Atlanta needs to separate itself from all cities. 3rd Little Town USA can be walkable with street activity, half of the stuff your saying don't even take northeast density to have. 4th Atlanta core can become more urban while select areas in the suburbs will too. What your doing is crying, I'm telling you to just move.... and the other half of what your saying isn't even realistic..... Chicago WTF? You believe all of the sudden everyone is going to jump up and just move to Downtown? Atlanta don't even have a grid to began to have a Chicago set up. And what we suppose do tear down national historic neighborhoods?
The 10 subarea along the Beltline, these areas are only possible because there in Brownfield areas right now. Master Planning // Atlanta BeltLine
I think in everyone's enthusiasm for density and disdain for auto culture posters are forgetting one crucial thing: Atlanta IS a sunbelt city. The city is already so full of concrete it literally creates its own weather. What happens with even more density? Dense living is just not all that desirable at 90 degrees with comparable humidity. Walkability is a great thing, but for me, a native southerner, it's simply too hot nearly half the year to do a heckuva lot of walking. I mean, you take the train in, then walk a couple of blocks to work and by the time you get there, you're absolutely unpresentable. Unless offices are going o provide shower facilities it's going to be intolerably smelly in a lot of places. And I say that as someone who routinely walked to markets and such back home, but as a SAHM I didn't have a boss or co-workers to offend. I can't see convincing women especially that walking around in business attire melting their makeup off is a good thing. I mean we are talking about southern women here where looking good is a major part of the culture.
Crescent Ave. is the closest thing Atlanta has to vibrancy. I'll admit, 11:00 on a Friday night, that little street impressed me with the amount of people walking. Now can we have that on other major avenues in the city everyday, at most hours of the day?
Ever been to Little Five Points, North Highland Ave in Virgina-Highlands, and Downtown Decatur. All these pockets of urban activity have people walking the sidewalks at night. Once the bars close the activity dies down.
I think Midtown will continue to densify with more apartment towers. The areas along the BeltLine in NE Atlanta will continue to see apartments built along it. Once the SE section from DeKalb Ave to I-20 is completed, that corridor will see a lot more activity.
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