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Old 10-23-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,463 posts, read 4,114,785 times
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I always had question about the vouchers: Don't the parents have to make up the other part of of cost of attending the school? And if not, what transportation will be made available to allow the children the opportunity to go from the bad school to the good school?

What if that kid didn't have anyone that would be able to take him/her home should that child have a desire to attend extracurricular activities and miss the first organized transport home? Will there be another organized transport made available for the kids wanting to attend extracurricular activities?

And will the parent be made to attend any meetings or what-have-you as a stipulation for their child attending a charter school? What that parent works at a company that will not allow that time off?

These are questions that I and others who are like-minded have asked, but have never really heard any answers for; not from the pro-charter school supporters and certainly not from the media.

It's easy to say "let's close up a failing school", but what happens to the kids who either don't have very dedicated parents, or do have parents who care, but simply don't have the resources to help them(the kids) out?

I would be very grateful if you can answer all of the questions I have ask and maybe provide a link or two to some information from legitimate organizations to back up your answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I don't believe in "fixing" underperforming schools. I'd rather they just close even though IMO underperforming isn't necessarily, directly tied to test scores. I know I would never send my kid to the neighborhood school where I live. The more good quality kids who leave bad schools the better IMO. That way they will either close or shape up.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:12 AM
 
14,385 posts, read 7,092,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
I always had question about the vouchers: Don't the parents have to make up the other part of of cost of attending the school? If the family is considered below poverty level in Ohio, they do not have to make up the difference in regards to the difference in tuition. I only know about Ohio and from what I know of my nephew's school is that it costs substantially more than the $5K that the Ed Choice program allows. His mom and my brother are not together and his mom is below poverty level in regards to income so he does not have to pay the difference in tuition. If a family makes more than 200% above poverty level they have to make up the difference OR they have to participate in "work study" programs at the school. I have a little cousin who is doing this with the Ed Choice voucher at his private school as his parents are not low income but don't make enough to pay the full difference. Parents do have to pay "fees" like material, student fees, lab fees, and administrative fees. These are the fees that me and a couple other relatives pay for my nephew. They are about $1200 a year and the school will let you pay them monthly. We just get together and pay them all at once for my nephew from 3 different sources. We all contribute a little over $400 for him. And if not, what transportation will be made available to allow the children the opportunity to go from the bad school to the good school? My nephew takes the city bus to school. His school is not that far from his home, maybe 15 miles but the city transit has a bus that goes to his school. The public school system where I am from provides children with a bus card, so rides are free in the morning and the afternoons. If they play sports they can get a time extension through 8pm for free rides. Our school system never had yellow buses like we have here in Atlanta and even I took the city bus as a kid from K-12. Like a PP mentioned, school choice works in many areas all over the country. Even in my hometown, the local public school district, which really was not all that bad to begin with, has mad drastic changes in order to persuade parents to send their kids to traditional schools. Many traditional schools have been revamped into single gender academies. They have public Montessori and Waldorf schools and schools that focus on low class sizes. Competition is good in the business world and it is good in education as well since there is so much money involved in public education. Here in APS district our kids get over $14K per year spent on them. If we had the option to send our kids to a private school, and send that money along with the child, I bet that all APS traditional schools would take notice and do more to attract students to their district. For people like me who don't want to spend more than 25% of their income on housing, states that have school choice are a GREAT option because my kids can be provided many options for their educational needs, regardless of my income or housing situation. If we end up moving back to Ohio, which is likely in the next couple years, then I already have some public high schools in mind for my son - one that focuses on STEM education, that is a traditional public school. If he doesn't get into that school we have other options like Ed Choice where he can go to a private school or he can go to a performing arts academy high school and take a course load that focuses on technology as he is interested in engineering. They also have an early college academy for high schoolers along with regular traditional high schools that focus on providing students with trades like cosmetology, automotive technology, medical assisting or nursing where the kids can graduate and be ready for certifications in specific fields. So there are many avenues available there in case my 10 year old changes his goals in regards to career, which I'm sure he will do since he's 10 lol.

What if that kid didn't have anyone that would be able to take him/her home should that child have a desire to attend extracurricular activities and miss the first organized transport home? Will there be another organized transport made available for the kids wanting to attend extracurricular activities? See above

And will the parent be made to attend any meetings or what-have-you as a stipulation for their child attending a charter school? What that parent works at a company that will not allow that time off?Vouchers are not used for public charters. Charter schools are regular public schools and they set their own requirements. My nephew who has a voucher has a little brother at a charter school. Conferences at his charter are not mandatory. My nephew with the voucher also does not have mandatory conferences at his private school, but they do have conferences and my aunt and cousin, the other relatives who pay for his fees, will attend for him. His parents also show up sometimes, when they want.

These are questions that I and others who are like-minded have asked, but have never really heard any answers for; not from the pro-charter school supporters and certainly not from the media.

It's easy to say "let's close up a failing school", but what happens to the kids who either don't have very dedicated parents, or do have parents who care, but simply don't have the resources to help them(the kids) out? Just like what happened here on the Westside in Atlanta, the children who don't have people who care about them should still have the option of a traditional school. We had a couple elementary schools close and a middle school. The remaining children not in charters right now who live in the affected neighborhoods can still go to Bethune, so there is still a neighborhood option. My view is that the same measures should be taken. Send those kids to a neighborhood school and still provide them with a decent education. I would rather the neighborhood school be more focused on individual children though and maybe take a page out of the charter book and let the administration at a particular school chose which programs/curriculum/class sizes they need to address the children under their tutelage.

I would be very grateful if you can answer all of the questions I have ask and maybe provide a link or two to some information from legitimate organizations to back up your answers.
I only know about info in regards to Ohio's Ed Choice scholarship program.

But do want to address that charters and vouchers are not the same thing. Both provide a choice to parents. We already have charters here in GA. They are usually public schools and have to accept students district wide via a lottery. They have a charter, which outlines their goals and usually have a different sort of curriculum than a traditional school or teaching methods which vary from the norm. Right now, kids can go to charters here in metro Atlanta, but usually they just need to live in the district. For instance, my son goes to a charter. If we move to a suburb, like Marietta, he wouldn't be able to continue to go to his charter because his school is in the APS district and Marietta has its own school district so that would not be possible. But we can live anywhere in Atlanta, as long as it is in the APS school district and still attend our school. Here in Atlanta, we provide our own transportation. Some schools, like KIPP schools, have buses that will go pick up kids. My son's school does not but we have an extensive carpool network set up and we do have kids from various areas of Atlanta come to our school.

In Ohio, they have what is called an "out of district transfer." Basically, you can go to a school in any district outside of your own (like from APS to Cobb) as long as you apply for the transfer and are accepted. Usually they have a limited amount of transfers available for a specific school. In Ohio you can use this transfer to go to a charter school outside of your general area, but you would be responsible for transportation for the child unless it is in the city I am from and they can get bus cards like I mentioned above.

You can also get the Ed Choice scholarship/voucher for private school attendance. Specific private schools allow a limited number of students to attend their schools. The child at the private school must have good attendance and must have good grades to stay at the private school withe Ed Choice. This is what my nephew is using for his own education. If a family lives in a school zone with an underperforming neighborhood school, they are eligible for Ed Choice. If the family is poor, they will get almost a full ride for a private school. My youngest brother also used Ed Choice and graduated from a co-ed Catholic High School in the city I am from. Their fees were not as high as my nephews school and so my mom only had to pay $200 per year.

Last edited by residinghere2007; 10-24-2012 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:23 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,487,584 times
Reputation: 409
Residinghere2007

Pretty much owned this thread.


I think it is despicable and silly to force good students to be picked on or to attend a low performing school that likely has too many disruptive students and distractions for the sake of "making it better". Most people would rather their kids not be some social experiment and be exposed to that environment.


Let parents that care put their children in a good schools away from that foolishness. Kids aren't guine pigs.
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 21,896,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
That's great, RC, and I am glad to hear it.

I guess the idea is that if any student can attend any school, it will tend to lift everyone up? If so, I would love to see that happen here.
I'm not sure. I know the Twin Cities has evolved to the point where some schools have specialties ... like nationally competitive marching band, consistent excellence in a certain sport, language immersion, etc., and sometimes kids will cross school district boundaries for that reason.

Here's some reading material in case you're curious:

C-D Thread about MN Open Enrollment
Choice Ironies: Open Enrollment in Minnesota
Minneapolis 2012-13 School Choice Center

Map and index to various TC metro school districts ... I find it interesting to compare them to the districts down here.
Twin Cities, Minnesota & Area School Districts

Atlanta metro public schools are quite different organizationally (a few very large districts instead of 40-50 smaller ones) and demographically from most public schools up there, so there are challenges here that also need to be overcome which can add additional variables into the equation.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,463 posts, read 4,114,785 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
Residinghere2007

Pretty much owned this thread.


I think it is despicable and silly to force good students to be picked on or to attend a low performing school that likely has too many disruptive students and distractions for the sake of "making it better". Most people would rather their kids not be some social experiment and be exposed to that environment.
The level and type of disruption that kids may or may not dole out is in the eye of the beholder, I'd say. When I was going through the DCSS K-12 system, I dealt with a lot of kids who were into the bullying thing. I simple fought back or took my licks like a young man. The bullies typically get their just desserts in the end; some sooner, and some later. But it does happens.

Then I learned the fine art of getting into my peer group who provided a "buffer" as it were, against the other kids. Some people may call that a "gang", but to me they were simply my friends who had my back when the chips were down. Those were some pretty good memories.

Times must have really changed from when I was a 80s kid to a 90s teenager. I didn't realize that nowadays, the way I grew up is considered "despicable" to you and some folks. To me, it was simply the school of hard knocks...a "prep school" as it were.

It was the type of social education that mentally girded me and men like myself...for the utter harshness that a black man in America will inevitably face in one way or another as an adult...be it unfair employment practices, racial profiling by police officers, being stereotyped in the media & by common laypersons, and often being given deficient services in restaurants, hotels, and other private establishments that given the same circumstances, would not be doled out to someone who is of a "fairer" disposition.

But in a way, what you have written has given me a greater understanding why so many people who are not of the African American persuasion have this irrational fear of me. They have never known the pleasure of growing up with men like me. They don't know my tics, quirks, my innermost desires, my greatest fears, and my greatest hopes. Most have never even tried to know.

How tragic is that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
Let parents that care put their children in a good schools away from that foolishness. Kids aren't guine pigs.

If it is considered a social experiment and an act of foolishness to live next door to a person like me, to go to school with a person like me, to even be a friend to a person like me...then I truly fear for the future of America and for this world.

Humanity may have a dark future indeed, if that is indeed the attitude that you and many others like you may have.

Last edited by AcidSnake; 10-24-2012 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,463 posts, read 4,114,785 times
Reputation: 2162
You made a lot of good points and even cleared up some misconceptions that I have had about vouchers. But that being said, I'm still not convinced that giving the state unelected power to simply yank money from local school districts is the way to go.

Georgia has been a very bad partner in recent times to local governments, especially those ITP. I don't trust the governor's office and the state legislature to do anything except continue their good ol' boy politics, where you have to be in the "in crowd" to get any sort of satisfactory results.

A lot of your answers to my questions involves your own personal anecdotal experience, and it's pretty obvious that you are solidly middle class and in a great position to support your children attending charter school. But I simply don't see your situation being easily translatable to a lot of other children who have to attend public schools.

That's my opinion on this subject. Thank you for the response, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I only know about info in regards to Ohio's Ed Choice scholarship program.

But do want to address that charters and vouchers are not the same thing. Both provide a choice to parents. We already have charters here in GA. They are usually public schools and have to accept students district wide via a lottery. They have a charter, which outlines their goals and usually have a different sort of curriculum than a traditional school or teaching methods which vary from the norm. Right now, kids can go to charters here in metro Atlanta, but usually they just need to live in the district. For instance, my son goes to a charter. If we move to a suburb, like Marietta, he wouldn't be able to continue to go to his charter because his school is in the APS district and Marietta has its own school district so that would not be possible. But we can live anywhere in Atlanta, as long as it is in the APS school district and still attend our school. Here in Atlanta, we provide our own transportation. Some schools, like KIPP schools, have buses that will go pick up kids. My son's school does not but we have an extensive carpool network set up and we do have kids from various areas of Atlanta come to our school.

In Ohio, they have what is called an "out of district transfer." Basically, you can go to a school in any district outside of your own (like from APS to Cobb) as long as you apply for the transfer and are accepted. Usually they have a limited amount of transfers available for a specific school. In Ohio you can use this transfer to go to a charter school outside of your general area, but you would be responsible for transportation for the child unless it is in the city I am from and they can get bus cards like I mentioned above.

You can also get the Ed Choice scholarship/voucher for private school attendance. Specific private schools allow a limited number of students to attend their schools. The child at the private school must have good attendance and must have good grades to stay at the private school withe Ed Choice. This is what my nephew is using for his own education. If a family lives in a school zone with an underperforming neighborhood school, they are eligible for Ed Choice. If the family is poor, they will get almost a full ride for a private school. My youngest brother also used Ed Choice and graduated from a co-ed Catholic High School in the city I am from. Their fees were not as high as my nephews school and so my mom only had to pay $200 per year.

Last edited by AcidSnake; 10-24-2012 at 05:46 PM..
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:57 PM
 
28,116 posts, read 24,646,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
When I was going through the DCSS K-12 system, I dealt with a lot of kids who were into the bullying thing. I simple fought back or took my licks like a young man. The bullies typically get their just deserts in the end; some sooner, and some later. But it does happens.

Then I learned the fine art of getting into my peer group who provided a "buffer" as it were, against the other kids. Some people may call that a "gang", but to me they were simply my friends who had my back when the chips were down. Those were some pretty good memories.

Times must have really changed from when I was a 80s kid to a 90s teenager. I didn't realize that nowadays, the way I grew up is considered "despicable" to you and some folks. To me, it was simply the school of hard knocks...a "prep school" as it were.

It was the type of social education that mentally girded me and men like myself...for the utter harshness that a black man in America will inevitably face in one way or another as an adult...be it unfair employment practices, racial profiling by police officers, being stereotyped in the media & by common laypersons, and often being given deficient services in restaurants, hotels, and other private establishments that given the same circumstances, would not be doled someone who is of a "fairer" disposition.

But in a way, what you have written has given me a greater understanding why so many people who are not of the African American persuasion have this irrational fear of me. They have never known the pleasure of growing up with men like me. They don't know my tics, quirks, my innermost desires, my greatest fears, and my greatest hopes. Most have never even tried to know.
I like you, Snake, and would have been proud to be your friend.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,463 posts, read 4,114,785 times
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Thank you Arjay. I feel the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
I like you, Snake, and would have been proud to be your friend.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Dunwoody)
2,047 posts, read 3,874,733 times
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I guess my view toward disruptive and bullying behavior is somewhat skewed due to time and place. I started elementary school in the 1970s. Desegregation was occurring and for whatever reason I, the youngest of six was sent to the white elementary school. I made friends there, then when I was in third grade they closed the black schools and all the black kids to the formerly white schools. Instantly, all the white friends I'd made were pulled out and sent to the newly formed seg academies. Today, if such a traumatic change occurred, there would be school counselors and other measures taken to smooth the situation. But this was Alabama in 1973 and that was so not happening.

The anger and resentment was palpable. The teachers were hostile, the kids responded to the hostility by acting out. Suffice it to say that I, socially awkward, tall for my age and bewildered, was on the firing line. The bullying was constant, it was impossible for me to interact or really even to get an education. I must say I contemplated suicide on a daily basis for most of my school years.

My own experience means that I won't tolerate my kid being bullied. If I have to pull my kid out. I'll do it. If I have to sell a kidney. I'll do it, but I'll be goddamned to hell and back before I'll allow my kid to be tortured the way I was.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:16 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,487,584 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
The level and type of disruption that kids may or may not dole out is in the eye of the beholder, I'd say. When I was going through the DCSS K-12 system, I dealt with a lot of kids who were into the bullying thing. I simple fought back or took my licks like a young man. The bullies typically get their just desserts in the end; some sooner, and some later. But it does happens.

Then I learned the fine art of getting into my peer group who provided a "buffer" as it were, against the other kids. Some people may call that a "gang", but to me they were simply my friends who had my back when the chips were down. Those were some pretty good memories.

Times must have really changed from when I was a 80s kid to a 90s teenager. I didn't realize that nowadays, the way I grew up is considered "despicable" to you and some folks. To me, it was simply the school of hard knocks...a "prep school" as it were.

It was the type of social education that mentally girded me and men like myself...for the utter harshness that a black man in America will inevitably face in one way or another as an adult...be it unfair employment practices, racial profiling by police officers, being stereotyped in the media & by common laypersons, and often being given deficient services in restaurants, hotels, and other private establishments that given the same circumstances, would not be doled out to someone who is of a "fairer" disposition.

But in a way, what you have written has given me a greater understanding why so many people who are not of the African American persuasion have this irrational fear of me. They have never known the pleasure of growing up with men like me. They don't know my tics, quirks, my innermost desires, my greatest fears, and my greatest hopes. Most have never even tried to know.

How tragic is that?





If it is considered a social experiment and an act of foolishness to live next door to a person like me, to go to school with a person like me, to even be a friend to a person like me...then I truly fear for the future of America and for this world.

Humanity may have a dark future indeed, if that is indeed the attitude that you and many others like you may have.
1. Not sure how you managed to bring race into it but I'm black to.

2.School isn't about forming gangs and fighting bullies, nor is it about obnoxious kids ruining the classroom experience.
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