AJC poll show majority of Metro Atlanta residents willing to pay a transportation tax (Sandy Springs: 2013, construction)

[cqholt]

They lost a ton of support by ignoring this sector. A line Garnett to Turner Field to the Gallery at South DeKalb to Stonecrest would have garnered a boatload of support in a hugely under-served part of the Atlanta region of the TSPLOST plan.

It would have cost at least $2 billion. Then fiscal conservatives would be complaining because the line serves an African-American majority area when 400 is congested and it serves a majority republican area. This is a red state, so republican areas get served first, eg: 400/285 interchange.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by cqholt

It would have cost at least $2 billion. Then fiscal conservatives would be complaining because the line serves an African-American majority area when 400 is congested and it serves a majority republican area. This is a red state, so republican areas get served first, eg: 400/285 interchange.

You have it all wrong.

Over 200,000 people pass through the 400/285 intercahnge each day. That project would have cost about $500 million IIRC.

The South Dekalb line is projected (by MARTA) to have just under 30,000 boardings a day at a project cost of just under $2 billion.

See a difference?


It is pathetic to try to make this a race issue when the ROI facts are so obvious.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

You have it all wrong.

Over 200,000 people pass through the 400/285 intercahnge each day. That project would have cost about $500 million IIRC.

The South Dekalb line is projected (by MARTA) to have just under 30,000 boardings a day at a project cost of just under $2 billion.

See a difference?


It is pathetic to try to make this a race issue when the ROI facts are so obvious.

The 400 intersection project would save maybe 30 seconds for each person per day. That's 6 million seconds per day. To save that same 6 million person-seconds each day with only 30,000 boardings, would require a time per person saved of only 3 minutes, 20 seconds. Since most people will spend far more than 3:20 on the train, substantially more time is saved per person than with an intersection. To find the breakeven point cost-wise, the South Dekalb line costs four times more than the interchange. Therefore, four times more time would have to be saved, or 13 minutes 20 seconds saved per person becomes the breakeven point. Additionally, what business will look at the intersection improvements and say "gosh darn, we should move to Atlanta, they're improving one intersection!" vs how many will say "Atlanta is expanding rail transit, let's move there"?

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by MattCW

The 400 intersection project would save maybe 30 seconds for each person per day. That's 6 million seconds per day. To save that same 6 million person-seconds each day with only 30,000 boardings, would require a time per person saved of only 3 minutes, 20 seconds. Since most people will spend far more than 3:20 on the train, substantially more time is saved per person than with an intersection. To find the breakeven point cost-wise, the South Dekalb line costs four times more than the interchange. Therefore, four times more time would have to be saved, or 13 minutes 20 seconds saved per person becomes the breakeven point.

Additionally, what business will look at the intersection improvements and say "gosh darn, we should move to Atlanta, they're improving one intersection!" vs how many will say "Atlanta is expanding rail transit, let's move there"?

For businesses...probably none of the above.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MattCW

The 400 intersection project would save maybe 30 seconds for each person per day. That's 6 million seconds per day. To save that same 6 million person-seconds each day with only 30,000 boardings, would require a time per person saved of only 3 minutes, 20 seconds. Since most people will spend far more than 3:20 on the train, substantially more time is saved per person than with an intersection. To find the breakeven point cost-wise, the South Dekalb line costs four times more than the interchange. Therefore, four times more time would have to be saved, or 13 minutes 20 seconds saved per person becomes the breakeven point. Additionally, what business will look at the intersection improvements and say "gosh darn, we should move to Atlanta, they're improving one intersection!" vs how many will say "Atlanta is expanding rail transit, let's move there"?

You think rebuilding that intersection and the approaches to it would save just 30 seconds? I guess you don't have any real understanding how bad that intersection backs up both 400 and 285 during rush hour.

Also, is there really that much traffic on the east side of town that rail transit would save any time at all?

Isn't there a more cost effective way of expanding transit instead of heavy rail to that part of town? $2 billion for 30,000 boardings (likely meaning 15,000-20,000 individuals riding) doesn't seem like a smart use of funds. That might be better than the Clifton Corridor abortion, but not much. Also, I doubt many businesses would get very excited over expanding rail to that part of town. That isn't exactly a hub of corporate activity.

[Newsboy]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Raise the gas tax, have a portion collected from the whole state go into an account for metro Atlanta transit. Atlanta is the economic engine of the state, what's good for Atlanta is good for Georgia.

ARE YOU KIDDING? Why should people in Savannah pay for Metro Atlanta's traffic problems?! We have huge traffic needs of our own! That's exactly why the regional approach of the TSPLOST was seen as the best option.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by Newsboy

ARE YOU KIDDING? Why should people in Savannah pay for Metro Atlanta's traffic problems?! We have huge traffic needs of our own! That's exactly why the regional approach of the TSPLOST was seen as the best option.

I agree that it (TSPLOST) is the best option, but the project list has to appeal to the masses. Having powerful groups get all pissy (Tea Party, NAACP, Sierra Club, etc) and boycotting the initiative because they don't get a disproportionate amount of the funding is stupid. NAACP boycotting because they don't get 2/7ths of the entire funding for one rail line that would directly impact only about 20,000 people daily is stupid.

Come up with a project list that is close to proportionate to population distribution and you might have a chance... but I doubt it because everyone wants their own project at the expense of everyone else.

[therealpattman]

Without the trust and support of the local population, no major improvements to the transportation infrastructure will be made without a project being on a top priority list for GDOT. The bottom line is the metropolitan Atlanta area can not expect the state to punish and negligent the rest of the state for its issues, now on the flip side, if new and expanding projects where constructed in every region then maybe they would support it. I know there was a study to add HOV lanes to I-20 in Augusta or a new freeway in Savannah or Columbus, people are not going to sit back and pay for something unless they are getting something out of it. Its just southern nature.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

You think rebuilding that intersection and the approaches to it would save just 30 seconds? I guess you don't have any real understanding how bad that intersection backs up both 400 and 285 during rush hour.

I used to drive through it at the afternoon rushhour 3-4 times per week. I know full well how time would be saved. Mostly because a redesigned interchange, would still be backed up! It would not be free flowing like you seem to think it would be. Just look at spaghetti junction, it backs up I-285 sometimes all the way back to 400.

Also, is there really that much traffic on the east side of town that rail transit would save any time at all?

Yes, actually there is. Plus, most people would rather sit on a train, than deal with traffic even if it takes slightly longer as long as it's not atrociously longer. The GA-400 corridor already has alternatives. They have several bus routes that run from various park and rides straight to North Springs to connect to the Red line. These buses run throughout the day, something I-20 east completely lacks! Sure, there are a few east-west bus routes that connect at Indian Creek, but they take three times as long to go the same distance as the GA-400 routes do because they meander around side roads.

Isn't there a more cost effective way of expanding transit instead of heavy rail to that part of town? $2 billion for 30,000 boardings (likely meaning 15,000-20,000 individuals riding) doesn't seem like a smart use of funds. That might be better than the Clifton Corridor abortion, but not much. Also, I doubt many businesses would get very excited over expanding rail to that part of town. That isn't exactly a hub of corporate activity.

So what's your minimum ridership for a worthwhile transit system? Bus routes can disappear overnight, but people tend to complain about unused rail infrastructure so the service can't "just go away." By your reasoning, we should never build rail anywhere, or have ever built it!

Perhaps it's not exactly a hub of corporate activity because there's no reliable transportation infrastructure, ever think about that?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I used to drive through it at the afternoon rushhour 3-4 times per week. I know full well how time would be saved. Mostly because a redesigned interchange, would still be backed up! It would not be free flowing like you seem to think it would be. Just look at spaghetti junction, it backs up I-285 sometimes all the way back to 400.

So the solution is doing nothing to improve the flow of one of the most important interchanges in the region? A new interchange might not fix everything, but it certainly would be an improvement and your '30 second' number shows your cluelessness.

Yes, actually there is. Plus, most people would rather sit on a train, than deal with traffic even if it takes slightly longer as long as it's not atrociously longer.

They would? People, in large numbers, don't prefer that a lot of places MARTA already rund. Making over-the-top, blanket statements like this ruins and shred of credibility you had.

The GA-400 corridor already has alternatives. They have several bus routes that run from various park and rides straight to North Springs to connect to the Red line. These buses run throughout the day, something I-20 east completely lacks! Sure, there are a few east-west bus routes that connect at Indian Creek, but they take three times as long to go the same distance as the GA-400 routes do because they meander around side roads.

So if there are no alternatives already on the I-20 corridor, perhaps a prudent thing to do would be to run some bus routes and connect the area. Why would you jump $2 billion in, before doing this step first?

So what's your minimum ridership for a worthwhile transit system? Bus routes can disappear overnight, but people tend to complain about unused rail infrastructure so the service can't "just go away." By your reasoning, we should never build rail anywhere, or have ever built it!

Bus routes that are inefficient and don't move enough people do disappear. I don't know of one bus route that had a high ridership that was axed. Doing that would make no sense. The bus routes that don't have enough riders go away. THAT IS A GOOD THING. The flexibility this provides for the city is valuable. Can the rider occasionally get screwed? Sure, but such is life. Spending $2 billion to add 15-20,000 daily riders is ridiculous. For that sum of money, we should demand more.

Perhaps it's not exactly a hub of corporate activity because there's no reliable transportation infrastructure, ever think about that?

There is an interstate highway. That didn't stop the development on the I-285 corridor on the north side of town. Perhaps there is more at play to the lack of corporate development of South Dekalb than just "there is no MARTA." C'mon son