Gateway to Connect the Atlanta BeltLine with Historic Fourth Ward Park (Marietta: sales, 2014)

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by JPD

OK, now you just sound foolish. There ARE people there. Exponentially more of them per square mile than there are where you live. In the future, there will be even more. When it comes to public projects, building for the future is smarter than building for today.

What is your point, again?

So these projects they're still building, or still planning, they won't have people in them? Because you just said there are already people there. The beltline was, and should be again, a major transit thoroughfare, not a little park for a few people who could be adequately served by transit running E-W to the downtown/midtown areas.

My point is that the beltline, serving a few thousand, is in the way of serving millions and will never have even close to the economic benefit that real rail transit on the beltline to Gainesville and beyond will have.

Originally Posted by jsvh

Do you actually have some inside information on why this cannot move or why they would not sell? What about the rail yards that used to be downtown near the gultch and along Marietta St a hundred years ago? Were those not OK to move?

No, but I have extensively studied railroads, and they don't do anything extra unless someone else funds it, or it's necessary for their operations. CSX did build a new intermodal yard in North Baltimore, Ohio all by themselves, but they had an operational reason to do so. Moving a major rail yard so a few people can walk their dogs is not reason enough unless someone pays them for the move in its entirety.

The rail yards in the gulch were for passenger operations primarily, and they will be again if the MMPT goes through (more reason to bulldoze the beltline, Amtrak's gotta get in). Most of the other yards you speak of, were consolidated. But railroads are about at the point where they can't consolidate yards anymore. Certainly not intermodal yards like hulsey.

Originally Posted by jsvh

Never said on the N-S trunk. It already has rail yards anyways. But why not a little further out on the same line? There are some under utilized industrial areas of stone mountain right along the same rail line. I really don't think an extra five miles will be critical to local truck deliveries. In fact it might be closer to a lot of places they are going on the North and East side without having to drive semis through downtown.

I never said ON the N-S trunk either. But trains would have to use it to access this moved rail yard. Out on the same line wouldn't work either, there's just not enough room. Go measure the area occupied by ALL of Hulsey's yard tracks, then go find a similarly-sized location between Atlanta and...I'll let you come all the way out to Conyers. Find an area that's big enough, and doesn't have a large number of residents nearby to oppose it. Don't forget, it shouldn't be off the main track so trains don't have to travel way out of their way to enter the yard.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Boulevard has a freeway interchange with I-20, <1 mile south of the yard.

Further out, Stone Mountain Freeway basically parallels this rail line a half a mile to the north. I would think they could find a site with even easier highway access. Or/also with easy I-285 access.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MattCW

So these projects they're still building, or still planning, they won't have people in them? Because you just said there are already people there. The beltline was, and should be again, a major transit thoroughfare, not a little park for a few people who could be adequately served by transit running E-W to the downtown/midtown areas.

The bold portion above makes no sense. Yes, the new projects that are being built or planned will have people in them. AND there are already people living in the area. Are you not familiar with the concept of infill development?

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MattCW

My point is that the beltline, serving a few thousand, is in the way of serving millions and will never have even close to the economic benefit that real rail transit on the beltline to Gainesville and beyond will have.

I don't think it's in the way of anything. I support commuter rail 100%, but it would require regional, if not statewide funding, unlike the Beltline, and most people said they aren't willing to pay for it.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by MattCW

The rail yards in the gulch were for passenger operations primarily, and they will be again if the MMPT goes through (more reason to bulldoze the beltline, Amtrak's gotta get in).

This is my preferred solution to MMPT routing: Track Twenty-Nine: Envisioning a New Rail Hub for Atlanta: Part III

Originally Posted by MattCW

I never said ON the N-S trunk either. But trains would have to use it to access this moved rail yard. Out on the same line wouldn't work either, there's just not enough room. Go measure the area occupied by ALL of Hulsey's yard tracks, then go find a similarly-sized location between Atlanta and...I'll let you come all the way out to Conyers. Find an area that's big enough, and doesn't have a large number of residents nearby to oppose it. Don't forget, it shouldn't be off the main track so trains don't have to travel way out of their way to enter the yard.

A few quick spots:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.70345...38581&t=h&z=15
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.82693...38581&t=h&z=15
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.74086...38581&t=h&z=15
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.68190...01929&t=h&z=15

But I am sure that there are flaws with all of them. Doesn't mean the they couldn't work if an exec at CSX takes a serious look at options with an nice offer from a developer for Hulsey in his mind. Again, my point is only that this option should not be off the table. Another solution may make more sense and that is the way it will be. But I see no reason that this should be taken off the table.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Further out, Stone Mountain Freeway basically parallels this rail line a half a mile to the north. I would think they could find a site with even easier highway access. Or/also with easy I-285 access.

Literally all available land is either part of Stone Mountain Park or filled with residential development. "Yes sir, we're declaring eminent domain on your property so we can move our rail yard because a half dozen people want an extra half mile of trail to walk their dogs on." Right, that will go over real well

Originally Posted by JPD

The bold portion above makes no sense. Yes, the new projects that are being built or planned will have people in them. AND there are already people living in the area. Are you not familiar with the concept of infill development?

It's called speculative development. It'd be one thing if they built the properties, let them fill up a bit, THEN started the beltline nonsense. But instead, with the massive bust that Atlanta is heading toward, they'll end up empty and abandoned, the trail will end up being a center of crime that people will avoid, and avoid living near, and Atlanta will have wasted countless millions, maybe a billion on this nonsense. Imagine if instead of a little trail, we spent all this money on stabilizing, and reinforcing the infrastructure of what we already have. Then maybe we could avoid this next bust altogether!

Originally Posted by JPD

I don't think it's in the way of anything. I support commuter rail 100%, but it would require regional, if not statewide funding, unlike the Beltline, and most people said they aren't willing to pay for it.

It's in the way of trains from the high-density Gwinnett corridor, and intercity trains to Charlotte and beyond. The freight railroads are already going to balk at putting Acworth, and Villa Rica trains through Howell Junction. Adding a third set of trains won't do anything to make them happier.

Originally Posted by jsvh

A few quick spots:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.70345...38581&t=h&z=15 Not enough room and very hilly right on the granite plus several operational quarries.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.82693...38581&t=h&z=15 Those buildings are mostly still used
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.74086...38581&t=h&z=15 Not enough room, and the residents would balk heavily at it
https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.68190...01929&t=h&z=15 Those buildings are all still used too

I've added my annotations next to the links. Did you actually measure the yard and all its supporting trackage? The yard itself is a mile long, the support trackage adds another 2 miles. But again, why are we going to pay CSX hundreds of millions of dollars, and in your ideas the displaced businesses hundreds of millions of dollars, just so a handful of people can walk their dog a slightly shorter distance?

[cqholt]

It's in the way of trains from the high-density Gwinnett corridor, and intercity trains to Charlotte and beyond.

Gwinnett will never help pay for trains into Atlanta.
This is a City of Atlanta project, that resides completely in the city limits and the city is seeking funding to complete it. The BeltLine has single handedly improved the Old Fourth Ward, by building the Historic Fourth Ward Park. Land values in that neighborhood are going up and its attracting young families to the area. More money in city coffers= more police\forefighters, better roads, and better schools!

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Gwinnett will never help pay for trains into Atlanta.

I didn't think they would. But it was always the plan to fund commuter rail from the state, not the individual counties.

This is a City of Atlanta project, that resides completely in the city limits and the city is seeking funding to complete it.

Doesn't mean they should hinder regional mobility. The city thrives on its suburbs. Without a good way for people out here/there to get into the city, the city would die.

The BeltLine has single handedly improved the Old Fourth Ward, by building the Historic Fourth Ward Park. Land values in that neighborhood are going up and its attracting young families to the area. More money in city coffers= more police\forefighters, better roads, and better schools!

So keep the park, but keep the railroad right of way for real trains.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MattCW

It's called speculative development. It'd be one thing if they built the properties, let them fill up a bit, THEN started the beltline nonsense. But instead, with the massive bust that Atlanta is heading toward, they'll end up empty and abandoned, the trail will end up being a center of crime that people will avoid, and avoid living near, and Atlanta will have wasted countless millions, maybe a billion on this nonsense. Imagine if instead of a little trail, we spent all this money on stabilizing, and reinforcing the infrastructure of what we already have. Then maybe we could avoid this next bust altogether!

Who is this "we" that you're referring to? It's certainly not YOU, because you haven't chipped in a dime for the Beltline, or for any other form of transit.

You're making a fool of yourself now. Stop it. The entire Inman Park O4W area was almost entirely built up before ground was broken on the Beltline. Drive down N. Highland sometime.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by MattCW

So keep the park, but keep the railroad right of way for real trains.

The Beltline hasn't been used for railroads in decades. You lost that fight a long time ago. Time to let it go.