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As a native Georgian who lives out of state (I did my bachelor's at UGA), I think Georgia can ill afford expansion of its public university system. The state is broke. I was pleased -- but very puzzled -- that GA could afford satellite campuses for Tech and GA Southern in Savannah, for example.
While I'm happy that scores are up at the GA institutions, no one should get carried away with student GPAs now. Grade inflation is rampant. At my old high school, the average student in 2011 had a solid B average (according to the local newspaper, the school's enrollment has become mostly black and low-income). Friends who teach college say that they cannot give a D or an F without it coming to the attention of the dept. head (who will overturn such grades as too negative and "punitive"). A grade of C is considered a lousy grade these days, so most everybody gets B's for coming to class and doing the work. A 3.76 GPA today is closer to a 3.2 in 1970.
You are right about grade inflation. In many cases it has risen to the level of grade deception. Early in my career I taught math classes part time in college (not in Georgia). The college administration told me that everyone deserved to pass. This was taken to the point of being ludicrous. This type of thinking also has led to the belief today that everyone deserves the same rewards regardless of the effort they put forth.
This might pass muster in some areas, but most of us would prefer to have an elevator we are riding to be designed by an engineer who actually had to study and prove he was capable.
You are right about grade inflation. In many cases it has risen to the level of grade deception. Early in my career I taught math classes part time in college (not in Georgia). The college administration told me that everyone deserved to pass. This was taken to the point of being ludicrous. This type of thinking also has led to the belief today that everyone deserves the same rewards regardless of the effort they put forth.
This might pass muster in some areas, but most of us would prefer to have an elevator we are riding to be designed by an engineer who actually had to study and prove he was capable.
This one professor bumps everyone up from a C-(failing) to a C if they show up every day in class. Pathetic. No quality. So many colleges have become diploma mills. Let's just have open enrollment schools so that everyone can waste money.
I never succumb to grade inflation. I suppose that's why I get such poor reviews on ratemyprofessor.com
Students must work for their grade. They get what they earn. I understand that different students are on different levels, but that job is in the jurisdiction of the admissions committee. College professors are not there to baby students. That's what high school is for. Higher education is called higher education for a reason.
Diploma mills ought to be shut down. Now, on the flip side, the role of higher education is different now. Back when there wasn't any grade inflation(PS, there always was - even in the 1700s), tuition wasn't an arm and a leg. There weren't as many jobs requiring college degrees as there are now. College wasn't seen as a 100% ticket into the middle class. Many people went to college to learn, not just to find a job. These days, the focus is shifting more on training than educating. Most traditionalist see this is a shoot to the foot. I see it more as the times changing. If the role of higher education, on the undergraduate level, is indeed to "train" and not educate, then schools ought to meet that benchmark. Many colleges do neither.
It pains me to see higher ed go down this road, and not just in America - around the world. I'm hoping that this state and other states follow North Carolina in making funding based on job placement. At least this way, the students still win.
Regional universities, by your admission, are no longer relevant.
What I was describing is not a regional university. The regionals Georgia Southern and Valdosta didn't merge with any schools in their regions which I think was the plan's major shortcoming. What I described would be a merger of nearby schools just as has been done by the BOR recently.
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I don't see the point in cutting down "Atlanta" programs. The duplication that needs to be cut are the ineffective and unpopular programs in rural Georgia. The schools that serve as nothing more than a way for people to hold a piece of parchment and feel proud without having any real life job implications are the schools that are wasting public funds. No. Your merger would cut the schools down from 7 to 2, which would not nudge the USG closer in quality to NC. It would nudge the USG closer to NC in quantity.
So you are against the BOR merger idea? It's not so much fewer schools you want but fewer campuses and since campuses are not being closed...this is not a good thing?
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GSU and GGC ought to merge because the two have practically identical access goals. GSU does a fantastic job with part-time, commuter and non-traditional students. The % of part-time students went up this year. GSU could start using the space at GGC to cut down the need for students to commute to Atlanta, a very expensive and tiring process. Similarly, GGC could serve as an access school to Georgia State much like how Gainesville State and North Georgia will operate. GGC also has dorms and a recreational center that students in the area can utilize. The GGC-GSU merger is a good fix up.
GSU and GGC don't have almost identical goals. They are very much apart as GSU has a strong research mission. If you are looking for sister institutions...that'd be GSU and KSU. Very similar programs and goals and can complement one another. And working together as one school, they'd be much more competitive in sports. Basically a GSU downtown and a GSU-North in the burbs.
GGC might be better to merge with UGA as UGA already has a presence in Gwinnett County.
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Atlanta Metropolitan could potentially be merged with GSU, although that may end up hurting GSU's flailing reputation. GSU must start attracting students who wind up at GCSU and North Georgia. GSU wasn't always like this. If you look at the figures from the 90s, GSU was more selective(i.e. attracting more brighter students) than a good number of these schools that have now surpassed it. Merging with a school of "below average students" would not help that cause.
Atlanta Metropolitan is a good 2-year school. They offer many technical degree programs. It isn't a good fit. Georgia State is having considerable financial problems as it is. It would be like slugging on 50 lbs of extra weight on a pack mule that's already struggling to do its job.
Right. AMC is not a good merger with GSU. Better to merge AMC with GPC. And I don't think GSU's reputation is flailing as its programs still do have good rankings still in US News. Clayton State is not so hot but better AMC and has a lot of potential as a campus of GSU. Clayton State would be a good GSU-South.
And a GSU-SPSU merger completes GSU as a comprehensive university and gives it a campus for more intensive science and technology research in which to grow.
But believe it or not, Atlanta Metropolitan is now a 4-year school.
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I'm not too familiar with Atlanta Metropolitan College, but if the school is doing fine, I don't see any harm in merging it under the GPC belt. There will be a little bit of savings, and GPC could, sustainability, expand its program offerings. Although, I'm skeptical if GPC can handle it. They must still be recovering from their former czar. They are already stretched over too many campuses.
How is GPC stretched too far? Instructional schools are fine with multiple campuses so long as enrollments on each campus is high enough.
So a GSU-KSU-SPSU-CSU merger should streamline administration, reduce duplication, and offer students multiple campuses in which to attend GSU without need to cross-register or transfer. And would be a more efficient use of athletic funds. As far as GGC, it could go either way with UGA or GSU. I still don't get why you think GGC is ideal for GSU as it seems to be the weakest link of the bunch.
Last edited by MathmanMathman; 02-23-2013 at 10:02 PM..
What I was describing is not a regional university. The regionals Georgia Southern and Valdosta didn't merge with any schools in their regions which I think was the plan's major shortcoming. What I described would be a merger of nearby schools just as has been done by the BOR recently.
So you are against the BOR merger idea? It's not so much fewer schools you want but fewer campuses and since campuses are not being closed...this is not a good thing?
GSU and GGC don't have almost identical goals. They are very much apart as GSU has a strong research mission. If you are looking for sister institutions...that'd be GSU and KSU. Very similar programs and goals and can complement one another. And working together as one school, they'd be much more competitive in sports. Basically a GSU downtown and a GSU-North in the burbs.
GGC might be better to merge with UGA as UGA already has a presence in Gwinnett County.
Right. AMC is not a good merger with GSU. Better to merge AMC with GPC. And I don't think GSU's reputation is flailing as its programs still do have good rankings still in US News. Clayton State is not so hot but better AMC and has a lot of potential as a campus of GSU. Clayton State would be a good GSU-South.
And a GSU-SPSU merger completes GSU as a comprehensive university and gives it a campus for more intensive science and technology research in which to grow.
But believe it or not, Atlanta Metropolitan is now a 4-year school.
How is GPC stretched too far? Instructional schools are fine with multiple campuses so long as enrollments on each campus is high enough.
So a GSU-KSU-SPSU-CSU merger should streamline administration, reduce duplication, and offer students multiple campuses in which to attend GSU without need to cross-register or transfer. And would be a more efficient use of athletic funds. As far as GGC, it could go either way with UGA or GSU. I still don't get why you think GGC is ideal for GSU as it seems to be the weakest link of the bunch.
There could be a fly in the mega-merger ointment. UGA probably wouldn't look down with favor in having a larger university in the USG than itself. Even GT probably would be unhappy to have a larger university than itself with engineering, architecture, and strong science programs. SPSU is not a threat to anyone in size. There's room for a GT and an SPSU. USG-wide, engineering makes up a very small percentage of the student population.
If the economy ever turns around, all the engineers this state can produce will be needed.
Politics will reign. Georgia probably has too many colleges to be run at optimum efficiency. But who is going to give their school up?
There could be a fly in the mega-merger ointment. UGA probably wouldn't look down with favor in having a larger university in the USG than itself. Even GT probably would be unhappy to have a larger university than itself with engineering, architecture, and strong science programs. SPSU is not a threat to anyone in size. There's room for a GT and an SPSU. USG-wide, engineering makes up a very small percentage of the student population.
If the economy ever turns around, all the engineers this state can produce will be needed.
Politics will reign. Georgia probably has too many colleges to be run at optimum efficiency. But who is going to give their school up?
Possibly, but UGA has to get used to the idea that it can't be elite and the biggest school too. GSU is within about 2,500 of passing UGA in size. Student quality fits the bell curve and UGA and GT are going after that skinny top tail-end while GSU is more of the fat middle. Otherwise the USG will have to work on spreading out students among more schools and possibly have to create new ones in order to protect UGA as the biggest school. A useless goal and being #2 in enrollment won't hurt UGA.
And right now, there is a larger school than GT with at least Engineering namely UGA and Ga. Southern is only 1,000 behind GT in size. So the addition of Architecture shouldn't be a deal breaker.
Possibly, but UGA has to get used to the idea that it can't be elite and the biggest school too. GSU is within about 2,500 of passing UGA in size. Student quality fits the bell curve and UGA and GT are going after that skinny top tail-end while GSU is more of the fat middle. Otherwise the USG will have to work on spreading out students among more schools and possibly have to create new ones in order to protect UGA as the biggest school. A useless goal and being #2 in enrollment won't hurt UGA.
And right now, there is a larger school than GT with at least Engineering namely UGA and Ga. Southern is only 1,000 behind GT in size. So the addition of Architecture shouldn't be a deal breaker.
Mathman,
You are right in most respects, at least partially. UGA's engineering program is brand new so it has to grow considerably to touch GT. The percentage of engineering students at GT and SPSU should always be highrer than at UGA and GSouthern. This should mean that SPSU and GT will have engineering as a priority, rather than a "me-too."
Engineering and medicine require the two largest investments in state capital to teach. How many colleges do you know of that had their own nuclear reactor? GT did. Hopefully, the BOR won't consider duplicating all the high-priced equipment and ge-gaws at all four(?) state schools that grant or will grant engineering and related degrees.
A question to UGA and GSouthern is will their engineering programs have to dance around what GT considers its province. SPSU has had to do that even to this day. The "thou shall nots" imposed upon SPSU when it separated from GT makes the healthcare bill look like a pamphlet. For years SPSU could not offer any degree for which GT had a counterpart. Another restriction was that SPSU cannot compete in the same athletic conference as GT, as though this is likely to happen. As is understood, GT went so far as to discourage SPSU's having a football team. Another unlikely venture even without Ma Tech still looking over SPSU's shoulder.
Knowing UGA, I would think they would want to align their engineering programs more closely with GT's than with GSouthern's or SPSU"s. They probably will hunger for the big engineering/science research bucks GT now gets. GT might have a bump or two in the road ahead.
With the economy in a tailspin and manufacturing fleeing the U.S., is now the time to pay for four engineering schools in Georgia given the current economic/political cesspool we are swimming in?
Last edited by consultingengineer; 02-24-2013 at 03:55 PM..
GSU's programs are far below par to what we had hoped they would be 10 years ago. Word is just now getting out. I only need to point at the first post and all subsequent 10-year trends. There was a time when GSU use to hold much promise. Now they've slipped considerably, not just financially. Regarding rankings, U.S. News has iffy methodology and is slow as the BLS. GSU holds no rank in other rankings, or very low ranks. I know the science program at GSU has had some issues. Sure, a few niche programs are successful, but the school will need to do more to remain competitive. Back in the day, we really worried about the state. Not we have to worry about schools around the world nabbing our students and vice versa. I think many people still see these schools(USG) as competing with each other. We see a hierarchy, but in reality it is an ecosystem(quote from the Chronicle). GSU does not compete with UGA and Georgia Tech for students - undergraduate or graduate. Nor do they compete for the same research grants. I would also argue that Georgia Tech and UGA do not, directly, compete with Emory. The top 20% at both schools may depending on major, but I don't think considerably. The socioeconomic behind Emory make them a bad fit for UGA and GT. Not to mention the social atmosphere. Now, the smaller schools have always and will always compete with each other for students. Nationally, schools want to "sell" their admissions ticket. It's not a new thing.
Either way, GSU is not doing well. Graduate applications to GSU have decreased over the past two years as have undergraduate applications(along with average scores for both applicants). A decrease in selectivity will result in a drop in rankings. I will make another thread analyzing GSU's shortcomings and possible fixes in the next few weeks. I want more data from the 2013 application cycle first. I'm very suspicious of Mark Becker. I haven't met him, but I haven't heard the best. Mathman, I think you and I will have interesting conversations on that new thread. I see that you're very passionate about GSU.
I think you are both grossly underestimating University of Georgia's engineering faculty. In just a year, the university already has two NationalAcademy of Engineering as well as securing a national ranking. Remember, UGA has been able to do that sitting up the street from a world renowned engineering institution. The College was established less than 12 months ago. The biological engineering program is highly ranked by U.S. News as well. I suspect that UGA's engineering will become more along the lines of Ohio State and Florida's engineering in the coming years. UGA's engineering is already passed the SPSU level. UGA engineering figures are up considerably by year. It will take time to build, but we will see some capable engineers coming out of Athens. I see UGA's engineering as somewhere in between theory and hands-on. That is a relativity scale, not a hierarchy. Both engineers serve their need. Now, the question is will UGA engineers also transfer to Georgia Tech? Depending on their major, some may. I will include transfer out data in my GSU analysis.
Now, UGA will never become the next Georgia Tech. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I consider GT's engineering programs to be above the levels of Michigan and Cal Tech. Unlike GT, UGA has a land-grant, sea-grant flagship mission to serve. They won't be able to put as much resources into engineering even if they wanted to. The new medical school, the Skidaway merger and several other new academic initiatives at UGA will make it hard for them to directly compete with STEM powerhouses(GT, Michigan, Cal Tech, MIT etc). Even first tier programs will not be immediately in sight. They will easily compete with Auburn, Clemson, UT-knoxville, Colorado School of Mines and institutions of the nature. Remember, they only want to become a solid program, not the only program.
I can say that UGA's undergraduate student enrollment will stay stable, following what Florida did. Michael Adams has already noted that in his final state of the university. Graduate enrollment is expected to take a big spike. The school wants to push for a more UT-Austin, UNC, Michigan, UVA AAU institution research image. That's basically their goal.
Florida State overtook UF in enrollment. TAMU has done the same with UT-Austin. If only GSU could match Florida State or TAMU in academics. We in Atlanta don't realize just how far behind GSU has gotten. UGA has a well-sized enrollment now. Really, we just need that SEC Network to come through. Knowing Jere Morehead, he'll use those extra millions for academics. UGA football is already one of the most sustainable and profitable cashcows in higher ed. SECU also seem promising. I enjoyed the conference on sustainability energy.
For once, I approve of Forbes methodology
"The two areas most important to our study are a team’s academic value, or the revenue directed towards university programs and spending (including football scholarships), and its athletic value, which is the football revenue used to support other athletic programs. The remaining two areas are weighted less heavily in our scoring system. They consist of the distribution of bowl game revenue amongst conference teams and the economic impact of visiting fans for each team’s home games."
This year, UGA saw a 1% drop in enrollment due to renovations to student housing. That number will be back up by 1-2% this year as Brown Hall on the medical school campus is completed and open to transfer and undergraduate students. The new Rutherford Hall and Bolton dining complex will also enable UGA to increase its enrollment slightly. You're right mathman, no school can have cake and eat it too. It's either become the elite flagship or the access school. They have chosen the latter. That is, unless they're Ohio State, but Morehead will never succumb to the businessman tactics of Gordon Gee. He had graduate students charged an extra $1000 for "international housing" simply to add more revenue to the school(and probably his salary)
I think a gumbo university will not have students in mind mathman. I think it will have money in mind. I do think we have one or two more consolidations coming. The biggest picks are KSU-SPSU. BOR has already expressed interest in this before. The others are more south GA mergers. Realistically, can we expect any big time mergers? No.
A KSU-GSU merger would certainly be beneficial, but it's like fanning a match during a hurricane. It won't happen in a million years.
Dichlor,
Your quote on an SPSU-KSU merger-
"I think a gumbo university will not have students in mind mathman. I think it will have money in mind. I do think we have one or two more consolidations coming. The biggest picks are KSU-SPSU. BOR has already expressed interest in this before. The others are more south GA mergers. Realistically, can we expect any big time mergers? No."
Should the BOR seriously propose an SPSU-KSU merger, they will receive considerable resistance from the SPSU community. SPSU's being part of GT turned into a travesty before the two schools separated. I don't see how KSU can do a better job with SPSU than could GT.
You are right about any large or gumbo university being money and power hungry. They are government entities and that's part of their DNA.
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Merger
