05-05-2013, 11:02 AM
Location: ITP
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I'm ok with the engravings of the Confederate generals on Stone Mountain because it's part of history. However let's not lie to ourselves about the root causes of the war. It was about slavery - period, point blank. Wealthy slave-owners felt threatened by a president elected on a platform of restricting slavery from expanding into the newer western territories. In fact they felt so threatened that some states seceded from the Union before Lincoln was even inaugurated. Having a large pool of free labor meant huge profits for major ag sectors, like cotton.
Additionally, many poorer Southern whites felt threatened by the potential of having to compete economically with freed blacks. Even more so, they were whipped into hysteria by propaganda saying that freeing the slaves would led to widespread "miscegenation", which would lead to the endangerment of the white race.
It's ugly, but it's history nonetheless. Sometimes history is meant to be a lesson rather than being a point of pride.
05-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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removed.
By the way, here's a phenomenal closeup of the carving. Be sure to click on the image to view it full size:
http://v7.cache3.c.bigcache.googleap...rect_counter=1
Last edited by atlantagreg30127; 05-08-2013 at 12:03 AM ..
05-05-2013, 12:18 PM
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Confederates for state's rights. Funny. One of the precipitating factors of the hostilities between the North and the South was that Southern Congressmen and political allies successfully passed the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 which essentially said any law enforcement official in ANY state who did not stop what he was doing to help apprehend an ALLEGED runaway slave was subject to a $1000 fine. Anyone in ANY state found giving any sort of aid to an ALLEGED runaway slave was subject to a $1000 fine and imprisonment. The state of Wisconsin nullified the law in 1859 and the Supreme Court overturned the nullification. Private citizens and law enforcement in states which outlawed slavery were conscripted for 15 years to help apprehend and return the private property (slaves) on essentially their own time and expense. Technically Union soldiers from non-slaveholding states were breaking the law if they did not return runaway slaves to slave owners until the passage of the 13th amendment. The only thing that kept American soldiers from prosecution was the fact that southerners took it upon themselves to collectively engage in treason against the US which gave Union generals broad powers to suspend Habeas Corpus. Yes, state's rights indeed.
When Alabama seceeded from the Union, North Alabama attempted to form its own state, slaveholding, but still part of the Union. The CSA denied North Alabamans this right. Thus North Alabamans had to form the First Alabama Union Cavalry to fight for their rights against their own state. East Tennessee wanted to remain part of the Union although slaveholding was still legal. The CSA denied East Tennesseeans this right. Most of the men in the First Alabama Union Cavalry were actually from East Tennessee. When Kentucky remained part of the Union and the USA unequivocally upheld the state's right to legal slavery, the CSA, not to be outdone, set up its own Confederate Kentucky government in Bowling Green. The Confederate States of America overrode the rights of citizens in its states and had a stronger and more domineering central government than the United States ever had to that point. The Confederate States of America, fighting for state's rights since...well never.
05-05-2013, 12:32 PM
Location: Atlanta ,GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LovinDecatur
The reason meetings were convened at Stone Mountain is because it was wholly owned at that time by James Venable, who held a high position in the Georgia Klan.
Which further solidifies my point.A hateful man ahead of a hateful institution commissioned to have the work done.
Its like the Confederate Flag is used constantly as a backdrop for hater groups.Many times beside the Nazi flag.
Why did Georgia change its states flag in the 50's after the Civil Rights Act passed?Oh...let me guess,"states rights"
In not for defacing the monument but don't try to act like its about something that its really not.
In Germany,the Autobahn still stands even though it was built by the Nazi's.Yes it was built for travel for the Nazi's but nowadays everybody uses it.
05-05-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
afonega1
Which further solidifies my point.A hateful man ahead of a hateful institution commissioned to have the work done.
Its like the Confederate Flag is used constantly as a backdrop for hater groups.Many times beside the Nazi flag.
Why did Georgia change its states flag in the 50's after the Civil Rights Act passed?Oh...let me guess,"states rights"
In not for defacing the monument but don't try to act like its about something that its really not.
In Germany,the Autobahn still stands even though it was built by the Nazi's.Yes it was built for travel for the Nazi's but nowadays everybody uses it.
You can probably glean from my previous post what little esteem (none) I have for the Confederate States of America, their "cause", and contemporary Southerners who glorify their ancestors who are no uncertain terms, traitors.
With that being said, Jefferson Davis is the odd man out on Stone Mountain. For as much as I abhor the Confederacy, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson actually were heroes. They were exemplary Americans before they ever became Confederates. While both were slaveowners, both were involved in the education of blacks even though it was technically illegal in the state of Virginia at that time. Both were involved in the apprehension of John Brown at Harper's Ferry, which was in Virginia at the time. While I sympathize and agree with John Brown's cause, he seized a federal armory. The Governor of Virginia ordered Lee and Jackson to retake the armory. There was no impetus for either to refuse this command in 1859.
Neither were in favor of Virginia's secession and joining of the Confederacy. At the time, units were organized by the states. Virginia's governor ordered Jackson back to Harper's Ferry in 1861. To not do so would have been an act of insubordination as well. Lee actually was offered a military command by Lincoln and actually surprised many when he did not relinquish his military post in Virginia (thus the Confederacy) because most of his family (the Lee's were a Virginian institution) were anti-secession.
I'm not defending either Lee or Jackson because both chose poorly when they did not defy the orders of Virginia's governor. But keep in mind Virginia's governor, General Assembly, and former congressmen were quite powerful individuals. The purpose behind moving the Confederate capital away from Jefferson Davis's home base of Montgomery, AL to Richmond was not only strategic, but a move of appeasement to place the capital in the hands of the true powerbrokers.
On that note, Jefferson Davis was scum. He was not popular, not particularly bright (Alexander Stephens was the true braintrust of the Confederacy), and not respected by Southern governors. If we are fighting for state's rights, why is Jefferson Davis attempting to boss us around?
When Robert E. Lee proposed emancipation of slaves as a military strategy to help actually win the war, he was rebuffed. So I guess maintaining slavery was ultimately more important than Confederate "sovereignty" in the end. If any part of Stone Mountain should be dynamited, it should probably be the depiction of Jefferson Davis. But if there
has to be a monument of any Southerners (individuals born in what would become the Confederacy prior to the Civil War), I would have to rank Lee and Jackson third and fourth after Washington and Jefferson, and those two are already on Mt. Rushmore. For the record, Andrew Jackson is scum too. Maybe Jefferson Davis's face could be replaced by P.G.T. Beauregard who opposed Reconstruction but as a Creole supported civil rights and enfranchisement for Freedman in for nothing else than to form a political alliance to return Democratic rule to his native Louisiana. His fellow countrymen preferred the strategy of terror, violence, and disenfranchisement instead.
05-05-2013, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
afonega1
Im Black and I'm Southern.Quite proud of it for different reason as some white Southerners.
That's a really great point. "Southerners" are not a monolithic group!
05-07-2013, 01:11 AM
Location: Georgia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
arjay57
Well, let's see how the state of Georgia explained its motivations at the time. Here's the opening paragraph of Georgia's official Declaration of Secession in 1861:
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery . They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property , and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party . While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact.....etc., etc., etc.
Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Georgia Secession
Wow. So much for the war not being about slavery.
05-08-2013, 12:05 AM
Location: West Cobb County, GA (Atlanta metro)
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Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)