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Old 10-04-2013, 01:15 PM
 
10,599 posts, read 7,533,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrythesnake View Post
Sprawl is good. I want to have space when I buy a house with land

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark View Post
I'm a bit curious - why is sprawl such a hot topic for folks who live in the city proper?
Basically if we all chip in for lunch, but only get roast beef sandwiches, ok, I am sure some people love roast beef and I do sometimes. But if I want something else for lunch, I may eat that sandwich because it is "free" or I can go out and pay more for what I really want for lunch.

"Free" highways (along with multiple other subsidies and the sprawl that is the result) are great for those that want that. But it results in me and everybody else having to pay relatively more to live in the city.

Not only that, but cities work best when they are denser and have more people. They allow for more transit, parks, events, lower taxes (among many other things) the denser and more populated they are.

If you want to live in the suburbs, that is fine, I am happy for you. I just don't want to pay for it and I don't want others to be forced to live in the suburbs due to financial issues.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:51 PM
 
6,180 posts, read 5,565,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostar View Post
In my opinion the major sprawl is just starting. Most of the college students who want to continue living in the city will need places to stay.
Not only that, but (something that is unknown to many Metro Atlantans) Metro Atlanta is a major destination point for future immigrants from Asia.

Metro Atlanta has particularly become a major destination point for future immigrants from the East Indian Subcontinent (where the counties of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh have a combined population of nearly 2 billion people) because of the presence of the shockingly-fast growing East Indian community centered in Gwinnett and DeKalb counties.

Gwinnett County is particularly a very-major destination and focus point for future immigrants from the Indian subcontinent because of the presence of the BAPS Shri Swaminarayan Mandir which is supposed to be one of the absolute largest Hindu temples in the world outside of India.
|| BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha - Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, Atlanta, GA ||

It is very-probable that the increasingly-heavy amounts of immigration from the heavily-populated Indian subcontinent could likely work to help push the population of Metro Atlanta over the 10 million inhabitant mark within the next few decades.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:01 PM
 
1,637 posts, read 2,136,306 times
Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Basically if we all chip in for lunch, but only get roast beef sandwiches, ok, I am sure some people love roast beef and I do sometimes. But if I want something else for lunch, I may eat that sandwich because it is "free" or I can go out and pay more for what I really want for lunch.

"Free" highways (along with multiple other subsidies and the sprawl that is the result) are great for those that want that. But it results in me and everybody else having to pay relatively more to live in the city.

Not only that, but cities work best when they are denser and have more people. They allow for more transit, parks, events, lower taxes (among many other things) the denser and more populated they are.

If you want to live in the suburbs, that is fine, I am happy for you. I just don't want to pay for it and I don't want others to be forced to live in the suburbs due to financial issues.
If a group of three people purchase lunch together save me the big piece of chicken
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:27 PM
 
29,949 posts, read 27,441,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
a previous poster said that potentially atlanta could extend to augusta, for example. this is patently absurd. people commute to work, and there's only so far people can commute back and forth to work everyday. right now, the distance seems to be about 40 miles from their jobs. any further than this and you see a serious dropoff in development. people are not going to commute that far to work everyday in traffic.
You have to keep in mind that not everyone from outlying MSA counties are commuting into Atlanta/Fulton for work. With large developments such as the Kia and Baxter plants in outlying counties, it seems to be theoretically possible that enough folks from a county or two away from those plants could commute there to pull those counties at least into the CSA. But I agree that metro Atlanta isn't going to sprawl into Augusta. It could potentially bump up against Chattanooga or Macon though.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:41 PM
 
6,180 posts, read 5,565,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
You have to keep in mind that not everyone from outlying MSA counties are commuting into Atlanta/Fulton for work. With large developments such as the Kia and Baxter plants in outlying counties, it seems to be theoretically possible that enough folks from a county or two away from those plants could commute there to pull those counties at least into the CSA. But I agree that metro Atlanta isn't going to sprawl into Augusta. It could potentially bump up against Chattanooga or Macon though.
The Greater Atlanta region (the Atlanta CSA) already effectively borders the Chattanooga CSA and the Macon MSA.

Gordon County, GA, which is on the northwest edge of the Atlanta CSA, borders Whitfield and Murray counties in Northwest Georgia, which are both part of the Chattanooga CSA.

Lamar and Butts counties, which are both on the south edge of the Atlanta CSA, both border Monroe County, GA, which is part of the Macon MSA.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:41 PM
 
1,151 posts, read 979,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Basically if we all chip in for lunch, but only get roast beef sandwiches, ok, I am sure some people love roast beef and I do sometimes. But if I want something else for lunch, I may eat that sandwich because it is "free" or I can go out and pay more for what I really want for lunch.

"Free" highways (along with multiple other subsidies and the sprawl that is the result) are great for those that want that. But it results in me and everybody else having to pay relatively more to live in the city.

Not only that, but cities work best when they are denser and have more people. They allow for more transit, parks, events, lower taxes (among many other things) the denser and more populated they are.

If you want to live in the suburbs, that is fine, I am happy for you. I just don't want to pay for it and I don't want others to be forced to live in the suburbs due to financial issues.
Can you explain what people in the city are subsidizing for those in the suburbs? From my understand everyone uses and benefits from freeways and many suburban folk work in the the suburb they live in.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:08 PM
 
29,949 posts, read 27,441,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
The Greater Atlanta region (the Atlanta CSA) already effectively borders the Chattanooga CSA and the Macon MSA.

Gordon County, GA, which is on the northwest edge of the Atlanta CSA, borders Whitfield and Murray counties in Northwest Georgia, which are both part of the Chattanooga CSA.

Lamar and Butts counties, which are both on the south edge of the Atlanta CSA, both border Monroe County, GA, which is part of the Macon MSA.
I actually thought so, but wasn't quite sure.
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:47 PM
 
10,599 posts, read 7,533,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhammaster View Post
Can you explain what people in the city are subsidizing for those in the suburbs? From my understand everyone uses and benefits from freeways and many suburban folk work in the the suburb they live in.
Not everyone benefits from freeways evenly. I can pull the numbers if you have any doubt, but suburbanites drive way more that city dwellers. Some people don't even use highways at all (And some never use transit, on the flip side). Every lane-mile of freeway costs millions and millions of dollars. The farther you drive, the more you use. The more people drive the more lanes we have to build and maintain. If I pay extra to live next door to my job and walk every day, a share of my federal state and income taxes are still going to pay for highways that you drive on. Plus my higher property taxes (because more valuable properties pay more) pay for even more of the local roads than you do (assuming you even live in the same municipality and pay any at all).

That is just the start. We subsidize mortgages which allow people to buy those big houses for less, people in cities are a lot more likely to rent and even if you own a condo, the HOA fees you pay do get the benefit of that subsidy. Also the money you spend renovating that great old in town house does not get that benefit. Then there are gas subsidies, subsidies to extend utilities to the burbs. Plus cities have traditionally handicapped themselves by taking on costs to support the region such as food, housing, health assistance to those in the region. A local example of this is Grady which is funded by Fulton and DeKalb but is the only level 1 trama center in the metro area.

So that is a quick highlight. If you want more details, there are papers and articles on it if you do some searches.
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:02 PM
 
1,151 posts, read 979,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Not everyone benefits from freeways evenly. I can pull the numbers if you have any doubt, but suburbanites drive way more that city dwellers. Some people don't even use highways at all (And some never use transit, on the flip side). Every lane-mile of freeway costs millions and millions of dollars. The farther you drive, the more you use. The more people drive the more lanes we have to build and maintain. If I pay extra to live next door to my job and walk every day, a share of my federal state and income taxes are still going to pay for highways that you drive on. Plus my higher property taxes (because more valuable properties pay more) pay for even more of the local roads than you do (assuming you even live in the same municipality and pay any at all).

That is just the start. We subsidize mortgages which allow people to buy those big houses for less, people in cities are a lot more likely to rent and even if you own a condo, the HOA fees you pay do get the benefit of that subsidy. Also the money you spend renovating that great old in town house does not get that benefit. Then there are gas subsidies, subsidies to extend utilities to the burbs. Plus cities have traditionally handicapped themselves by taking on costs to support the region such as food, housing, health assistance to those in the region. A local example of this is Grady which is funded by Fulton and DeKalb but is the only level 1 trama center in the metro area.

So that is a quick highlight. If you want more details, there are papers and articles on it if you do some searches.

Your highlights paint a narrow and broad brush of so called "surbanites" lifestyles.

1. Many people in the "suburbs" don't take freeways to work because they live in the same county they work in. So how are they driving more and even so its roads they pay for with their tax,

2. Many people (a huge amount in ATL) in the city commute out to the burbs for work. What's their burden?


3. Plenty of people rent in the suburbs and plenty rent in the city, and people pay higher property based on value everywhere. What's their burden? Doesn't north Fulton want to break off because they are paying more then the city of Atlanta in south Fulton overall?

4. Everyone benefits from freeways bringing in goods and commerce. What's everyone's burden on that?
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:41 AM
 
10,599 posts, read 7,533,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhammaster View Post
Your highlights paint a narrow and broad brush of so called "surbanites" lifestyles.

1. Many people in the "suburbs" don't take freeways to work because they live in the same county they work in. So how are they driving more and even so its roads they pay for with their tax,
Great, then they won't have to worry about paying any extra tolls or user fees compared to someone who drives as little in the city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhammaster View Post
2. Many people (a huge amount in ATL) in the city commute out to the burbs for work. What's their burden?
They would pay tolls / fees the same as anyone. Though congestion pricing has proven to be effective and if that was implemented there tolls would not be as high if they were going the opposite of traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhammaster View Post
3. Plenty of people rent in the suburbs and plenty rent in the city, and people pay higher property based on value everywhere. What's their burden? Doesn't north Fulton want to break off because they are paying more then the city of Atlanta in south Fulton overall?
Not sure what point you are going for. All I am saying is we need to be paying for roads with user fees, not property taxes (a few exceptions, but definitely need to shift that way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhammaster View Post
4. Everyone benefits from freeways bringing in goods and commerce. What's everyone's burden on that?
The full cost of transportation should be in the price of the product. The truck that product was shipped on should have to pay fees to cover the roads that it traveled on. It should be cheaper to build something in Georgia than build it in China and transport it here.

All I am trying to suggest is people pay for what they use. If you live in the suburbs and don't use the highways, you should not have to pay for the highways. If you live in downtown and drive 100 miles a day you should be paying a big chunk of fees. And vice versa.
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