U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-10-2013, 08:50 AM
 
7,826 posts, read 5,242,451 times
Reputation: 1387

Advertisements

Could Atlanta teach Prince George's about smart growth? - Greater Greater Washington


This article draws a comparison of Prince George's County Maryland which is outside Washington D.C. with Atlanta proper inside the perimeter and the TOD that has taken place in Atlanta proper like Atlantic Station etc. The author suggests PG county should learn from and mimic the TOD development in Atlanta proper inside the perimeter since both possess the same development style of small lot single family homes. Atlanta does resemble inside the beltway PG county in their development style, but should PG county use Atlanta as an example for how to build TOD?

I can agree that national leaders in TOD like Arlington VA, Alexandria VA, Bethesda MD, and Silver Spring MD are probably not good examples because they are built different and too urban and developed for PG county to try to mimic. Those area's could go pound for pound with some major city downtown's, however, PG county should use the gold standard when striving for improvement. Is Atlanta the best example of TOD success for lower density area's dominated by single family home development? After further analysis, I think I can agree with that actually.

Atlanta like PG county has rapid transit stations (15 Metro stations in PG County, MARTA in ATL) that are largely underdeveloped. Both area's are in the process of developing them. PG County just like Atlanta is not going to knock all those small lot single family homes down and build new narrow streets with row houses and high-rises across the area. D.C. was developed in a different era and cities not already built that way will never be able to achieve anything remotely close to that level of intensity.

There is still improvement to be had and Atlanta is the perfect example of success in developing small urban nodes across an area around transit mixed in with single family homes. Thoughts?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-10-2013, 09:21 AM
 
7,826 posts, read 5,242,451 times
Reputation: 1387
http://business.gwu.edu/walkup/atlan...tlanta2013.pdf

Report about Atlanta "WALK UPs."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2013, 09:53 AM
 
Location: McLean, VA
434 posts, read 398,525 times
Reputation: 252
What goes unmentioned is that some of the comparison is no doubt racial as PG County is the wealthiest black majority county in the nation (with DeKalb being second)

Incidentally, this article showing the DC metro map according to income and race was posted today:

Mapping Metro by Race and Income - Housing Complex

The perception of PG County as a "black" county (by non-blacks) has hurt its development, and that can't be ignored. Similarly, many see Atlanta as a "black" city.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2013, 11:16 AM
 
7,826 posts, read 5,242,451 times
Reputation: 1387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
What goes unmentioned is that some of the comparison is no doubt racial as PG County is the wealthiest black majority county in the nation (with DeKalb being second)

Incidentally, this article showing the DC metro map according to income and race was posted today:

Mapping Metro by Race and Income - Housing Complex

The perception of PG County as a "black" county (by non-blacks) has hurt its development, and that can't be ignored. Similarly, many see Atlanta as a "black" city.

I don't know if I can agree with you. Political activism and incentives has been proven as the sole most important reason for successful TOD development. The county council in PG county is the main one responsible for the sprawl in PG county. Instead of focusing development around transit stations and providing incentives to build there, they pushed large suburban housing developments outside the beltway. That has been a county focus and that is why they have that issue.

Arlington VA, and Montgomery County MD on the other hand politically blocked and forced development in the center of their counties around metro station's and continues to do so. That is why they are national leaders in development. I'm not going to include Alexandria VA which is older than D.C. therefor is unfair to compare to PG or ATL. Fairfax County VA right now is going through the largest suburban to urban redevelopment in the history of this country transforming an edge city into a booming urban downtown. If all these other counties have the political will to block single family homes construction and focus on urban development, how come PG county hasn't done the same in the past. They are just now focusing on urban development and now they have National Harbor finished and New Carrolton under construction. But the other counties are decades ahead of PG county in development largely because of their development style focus in my opinion. Look at what is happening in Tyson's Corner's redevelopment:


Tysons Spring Hill Metro Station Development - YouTube

Tysons West Proposed Mixed Use Development - YouTube

Fairfax County's Georgelas Development in Tysons - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-10-2013, 12:10 PM
 
Location: McLean, VA
434 posts, read 398,525 times
Reputation: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
I don't know if I can agree with you.
All I was saying is that I suspect that part of the tendency to compare the two is because of race.

Quote:
Political activism and incentives has been proven as the sole most important reason for successful TOD development. The county council in PG county is the main one responsible for the sprawl in PG county.
Yes of course, but many of those that moved out to PG County did so to get more home for their money. They did not want to move from a condo or row house in DC to another condo or row house in PG County. I have a friend (who, like me, is black) that lives out in Mitchellville and he told me that he moved out of DC because he "refused to pay half a million dollars for a house and have to park [his] car on the street." (Meaning that he wanted a garage) A row house in DC can cost you well over $500K (on the bottom end), while a larger single family home with a garage and backyard in PG County will cost you the same.

The dream of middle and upper class blacks has been to have a home with a yard and to have a nice car (or three) and PG County's board thus moved in that direction because there was little to no demand for TOD. These are the same qualities that made Atlanta a popular destination for affluent blacks.

Things will likely change with the next generation of middle and upper class blacks, but those roughly 37 or so and older wanted a house with space and to drive a car, and that is why PG county is the way it is today.

Quote:
They are just now focusing on urban development and now they have National Harbor finished and New Carrolton under construction
While very nice, not sure I would consider National Harbor to be TOD since it has no metro stop.

Last edited by Darkseid; 10-10-2013 at 12:22 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2013, 03:10 PM
 
7,826 posts, read 5,242,451 times
Reputation: 1387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
All I was saying is that I suspect that part of the tendency to compare the two is because of race.

Yes of course, but many of those that moved out to PG County did so to get more home for their money. They did not want to move from a condo or row house in DC to another condo or row house in PG County. I have a friend (who, like me, is black) that lives out in Mitchellville and he told me that he moved out of DC because he "refused to pay half a million dollars for a house and have to park [his] car on the street." (Meaning that he wanted a garage) A row house in DC can cost you well over $500K (on the bottom end), while a larger single family home with a garage and backyard in PG County will cost you the same.

The dream of middle and upper class blacks has been to have a home with a yard and to have a nice car (or three) and PG County's board thus moved in that direction because there was little to no demand for TOD. These are the same qualities that made Atlanta a popular destination for affluent blacks.

Things will likely change with the next generation of middle and upper class blacks, but those roughly 37 or so and older wanted a house with space and to drive a car, and that is why PG county is the way it is today.

While very nice, not sure I would consider National Harbor to be TOD since it has no metro stop.
I agree that black people (I am black myself) are generally looking for large homes for as cheap as possible. Black people are sort of in transition. Many grew up without amenities so they don't really know what they are missing. Most saw large houses and wanted to experience what it felt like to live in a large home. I believe that as the cycle passes, black people too will want to be in walking distance to amenities and all the things they need in life instead of spending half their life in a car with a large house in the suburbs. That is what young white people are doing now who grew up in the suburbs. They are tired of traffic and not being near entertainment. There are quite a few black people that are doing that now, however, I think those that are moving into the city also grew up in middle class black families in the suburbs so they too are tired of traffic and not being near things which puts them in the same position as white middle class young adults.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2013, 10:11 PM
 
1,690 posts, read 1,045,349 times
Reputation: 743
I think the suburbs will still rule the living options for blacks for a while.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2013, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Inglewood, CA
1,575 posts, read 1,541,707 times
Reputation: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staysean23 View Post
I think the suburbs will still rule the living options for blacks for a while.
I agree and that's sad. I keep telling my people that the urban areas are what will be desirable in the future and that the trend in many US cities (NYC, DC, LA, etc) is following the European model where the suburbs will often (not always obviously) be the poor areas. But they just look at me like I'm crazy and go house shopping in Palmdale, Perris, and Moreno Valley.

Atlanta is different though. You can have a relatively urban lifestyle if you choose, but the overwhelming growth is still outwards. It'll take 5 lifetimes to infill what's already there. And regarding the article, in many ways PG is similar to Atlanta and in some ways more urban than large parts of Atlanta. But in other ways it's unfair to expect that a suburban county can really emulate a powerhouse city for an entire region of the country. Atlanta just has too much going for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2013, 12:54 AM
 
11,139 posts, read 7,002,406 times
Reputation: 5590
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
I agree and that's sad. I keep telling my people that the urban areas are what will be desirable in the future and that the trend in many US cities (NYC, DC, LA, etc) is following the European model where the suburbs will often (not always obviously) be the poor areas. But they just look at me like I'm crazy and go house shopping in Palmdale, Perris, and Moreno Valley.
I know what you're getting at here, but I wouldn't exactly call it sad. Even with urban areas experiencing a resurgence, suburban home ownership is still seen as the American dream and it has historically been a dream deferred for African Americans who were systematically shut out of opportunities to own homes in neighborhoods with appreciating property values, which were in the suburbs. For many African Americans, urban cores represent blight, poverty, and a lack of opportunity since for so long, suburban areas received investment and thrived at the expense of downtowns and inner-city neighborhoods. Also, to find a reasonable price point for a home in urban neighborhoods can be difficult, and getting in on the ground floor of a gentrification wave is a risky endeavor and many African Americans simply cannot afford that risk. Furthermore, I think this whole thing about "American cities are going the route of European cities" is way overblown. The suburbs aren't going anywhere and they will still be desirable for generations to come. That said, I've found that in cities like Atlanta and DC, you see more single/childless "buppies" opting for urban areas, just like in most cities. You won't find too many families with school-age children doing so, at least not yet.

Last edited by Mutiny77; 10-16-2013 at 01:06 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2013, 03:32 AM
 
Location: McLean, VA
434 posts, read 398,525 times
Reputation: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
I believe that as the cycle passes, black people too will want to be in walking distance to amenities and all the things they need in life instead of spending half their life in a car with a large house in the suburbs. That is what young white people are doing now who grew up in the suburbs.
For single young professionals that is very true, but once they get married and have children their priorities change. My sister lives in Brooklyn and was unmarried, childless and car-less until she got married a couple of years ago. Now she and her husband have a child and two cars (although they are still in Brooklyn). Even if a family with children lives in the city, a car is just a must - if not for anything else but to haul all of the groceries and children.

I have other (black) friends that swore up and down that they would never leave the inner city, but sold their inner city home and settled into their suburban lifestyle with their new families.

I know that many TOD advocates scream when this is mentioned, but it is true: the inner cities - particularly the gentrifying areas - are not family friendly (some people in these communities are downright hostile to families). The suburbs usually have better facilities for activities like child sports leagues and parking for everyone's cars. And those leagues require driving - lots of driving.

All in all, I agree with Mutiny77's statement here:

Quote:
I think this whole thing about "American cities are going the route of European cities" is way overblown. The suburbs aren't going anywhere and they will still be desirable for generations to come. That said, I've found that in cities like Atlanta and DC, you see more single/childless "buppies" opting for urban areas, just like in most cities. You won't find too many families with school-age children doing so, at least not yet.
Kids need space, and space costs money. So most families will naturally opt for more home for their money in communities designed with families in mind. Then on top of that, the suburbs generally have the "best" schools. Unless something drastically changes, that will be the case for the foreseeable future. Not "good" or "bad". It just is. The reason I don't think that American cities will be like European ones is because (unlike France, Spain UK et al) America has lots and lots of space.

As time passes, what I see happening is that the most affluent will live in the fashionable urban core (e.g. Manhattan's Upper West Side, Georgetown and parts of NW DC) as they have the financial resources to afford private schools and transport their kids as needed. (Perhaps Buckhead ATL will be mini-version of that?) The upper middle class - priced out of that option - will live in select suburbs for reason I stated above (space, family amenities). Everyone else will be everywhere else. There will be poor suburbs and poor inner city neighborhoods.

I do see that affluent, single blacks will desire to live in and around TOD, but as they get older, I don't see them staying. They will simply be replaced by the next generation of young, affluent city dwellers.

On a similar note, I don't understand suburban Atlanta's irrational resistance to MARTA. I love being able to park and hop on the metro into DC to catch a Wizards game or what have you. Heavy rail, actually enhances suburban life and connects you to the urban core. But then again, maybe that is their problem
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Georgia > Atlanta

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top