Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm almost embarrassed to say that I live in Cobb County. This guy really said that he didn't support rail, but supports a $10 to $15 bus fare. That's ridiculous IMO
Then keep the heavy rail in the city limits. I used to really want rail in the suburbs, but realized, we don't need it there. If people choose to be in traffic, so be it. Create more lines in the city limits and densify neighborhoods around these lines. 20 more miles of heavy rail in the city limits would go a long way in improving this city's transit.
While more lines are certainly warranted within the city limits, an extension to Cumberland shouldn't be out of the picture either. However, extension to the suburbs along non-rail corridors should also be built such as the Red Line extension up GA-400 as well as I-20 East at least as far as Stonecrest.
Originally Posted by neil0311 For the 99999999th time... roads are used by everyone, including transit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
Trains don't use roads.
Trains don't use roads, but commuter and express buses do use roads to connect with passenger rail transit lines at stations in a multimodal setup where buses are needed to shuttle passengers to and from places that rail transit lines cannot directly pick-up and drop-off passengers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 Roads are common and necessary infrastructure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
So is transit
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
And transit can help make the roads far more efficient, as well as dramatically increasing commerce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW
Any high capacity transit going up the Cobb Parkway/I-75 corridor into Atlanta would serve a very real need and would have extremely good ridership, and like every other transit system in this country, would still need some type of subsidy.
...Excellent points, Matt.
Though, in this current political climate which continues to be controlled and even dominated by highly anti-tax and anti-transit political, social and cultural factions (particularly at the statewide level in Georgia and at the local level in historically staunchly transit-averse Cobb County), that type of subsidy that high-capacity passenger rail-anchored transit would need would likely not be able to come from traditional sources (like revenues from sales taxes and non inflation-indexed sales taxes) but likely would have to come from non-traditional sources (...non-traditional sources like Tax Increment Financing and Value Capture, inflation-indexed distance-based fares, and private investment).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Outside of a line up 75 to Cumberland with a right turn on 285 back to Sandy Springs and then to Doraville, Heavy Rail is not the answer for Cobb.
Commuter Rail. Focus on that folks...
I agree that at the very-least and at a bare-minimum, regional commuter rail transit service should be already operating within the right-of-way of the state-owned, CSX-leased historic Western & Atlantic Railroad that parallels the often extremely severely-congested I-75 through Cobb County.
(...And with the very-severe traffic congestion that plagues Interstates 75 & 575 and US 41 on most days, regional commuter rail service very-likely should have been in operation on that W&A Railroad ROW in the US 41/I-75/I-575 NW corridor at-least 20 years ago and very-likely should have been part of the "Freeing-the-Freeways" project that widened I-75 and other Metro Atlanta freeways during the '80's and '90's.)
Though, with highly-populated Cobb County already currently having a population of over 700,000 residents that is greater than many major American cities (including Washington DC, Boston, Detroit, Nashville, Memphis, Kansas City, St. Louis, Denver, Seattle, Oklahoma City, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Miami, Milwaukee, Portland, etc); and with Cobb County having a road network that was only built to support a population of roughly 300,000 residents at best; and with Cobb County's population (and the resulting severe traffic congestion) expected to continue to grow at a high-rate; and with multiple mayors of Cobb County cities that straddle the existing W&A Railroad ROW expressing an interest in having a HEAVY rail transit line serve their communities as a way of developing their cities' historic downtowns into popular and trendy places to live, work, shop and play; and with peak-hour traffic congestion on I-75, I-575, US 41 and other major Cobb County roads continuing to worsen with a very fast-growing large population; Cobb County is very-likely well-beyond the point of needing only intermittent commuter rail service only primarily during morning and evening rush hours.
At this point of being a continued very fast-growing community with a large population that is larger than many major American cities and a constricted road network that likely has reached the limits to which it can be expanded, Cobb County very-likely needs transit service with much more consistency and availability than just a few trains a day during morning and evening rush hours.
At this point in time where Cobb County is longer the sparcely-developed and populated far-flung outer-suburban area that many people still think of it as being from 50, 40, 30 or even 20 years ago when the county resembled something similar to what Cherokee County or Paulding County is today; Cobb County very-likely needs heavy rail transit service out to as far as Acworth (where the mayor has desired it be extended to as a way of helping to develop Acworth's historic downtown into a mixed-use destination) with regional commuter rail transit service continuing on beyond into Northwest Georgia towards Cartersville, Calhoun, Dalton and Chattanooga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnsleyPark
Unsubsidized rail would be way too expensive for the average public transit rider.
Unsubsidized passenger rail transit service would not necessarily be too expensive for the average public transit rider if the definition of the average public transit rider and the targeted demographic for public transit service was expanded from lower-income transit-dependent commuters to include (and appeal heavily to) middle and upper-income choice riders.
Unsubsidized passenger rail transit service also would not necessarily be too expensive for the average public transit rider if, instead of coming from highly politically-sensitive and politically-unpalatable traditional sources (like fuel taxes and sales taxes) where a proposed increase in revenues would anger powerful voting constituencies in a highly tax-adverse state and region, the subsidies came from much less politically-sensitive non-traditional sources like:
...Revenues from inflation-indexed distance-based fares paid by higher-income choice riders (allowing lower-income transit-dependent riders to receive discounted fare rates);
...Revenues from for-profit out-leases of publicly-owned real estate assets that adjoin transit stations and lines (allowing both higher-income choice riders and lower-income transit-dependent riders to receive lower fare rates);
...Revenues from Tax Increment Financing/Value Capture (portions of property tax revenues from new development that pops at and around transit stations and along transit lines...also allowing both riders of all incomes to receive lower fare rates);
...Revenues from for-profit term-leases of multimodal transportation corridors (including major rail transit lines and connecting local and commuter bus routes; and grade-separated intersections and controlled-access interchanges on parallel major roads) and all accompanying initial construction and continuing maintenance costs out to private investor/operators (...a lucrative source of revenues for transportation subsidies in heavily-populated major metro regions and major population centers).
Lack of rail-based transit is why Cumberland lags behind other business districts with transit in rent, occupancy, etc.
...Exactly.
Despite its prime location at the intersection of I-75 and I-285 on the heavily-populated Northside of Metro Atlanta, the Cumberland/Galleria area lags behind the Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter/Dunwoody areas in rental rates and occupancy rates because it does not have the direct rail transit connection to the world-leading Airport that the Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter/Dunwoody areas have by virtue of their direct links to MARTA-operated heavy rail transit lines.
...Which is why Cobb County and Cumberland business and real estate interests so desperately want to establish a high-capacity passenger rail transit link between the Cumberland/Galleria area the Atlanta Airport by way of Downtown Atlanta (and which is also why Cobb and Cumberland business and real estate interests also want to establish a high-capacity passenger rail transit link across the I-285 Top End Perimeter to the Perimeter Mall/Dunwoody and Gwinnett County areas)...to increase the value of commercial properties in the Cumberland/Galleria so that it is more-competitive with commercial properties in the Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead and Perimeter/Dunwoody areas.
I'm almost embarrassed to say that I live in Cobb County. This guy really said that he didn't support rail, but supports a $10 to $15 bus fare. That's ridiculous IMO
State Representative Earl Ehrhart didn't say that he doesn't support rail, he said that he doesn't support MARTA rail to Cobb County and he said that he does not support publicly-funded transit, which is appropriate considering that there is a move afoot by transit-supporting moderate conservatives in the Georgia State Legislature (led by moderate Republicans in transit-hungry North Fulton and North DeKalb counties) to takeover, overhaul and privatize most or all of MARTA (particularly the valuable north-south lines that connect directly to the airport) so that passenger rail transit service linking with the airport can be expanded to increasingly severely-congested and transit-hungry areas north of the I-285 Top End Perimeter in North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett counties.
The current political calculus is that conservative suburbanites in historically transit-averse areas would be far more likely to accept the idea of extending high-capacity passenger rail transit into areas like North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett counties if the region's main transit service/agency is controlled by conservative Republicans in the politically-dominant Northern suburbs (and operated by private interests) than those conservative suburbanites would be if the transit agency remain in control of liberal Democrats in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties.
The increasing desire of politically-dominant conservative North Metro suburbanites to take control of MARTA away from left-leaning urbanites in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties is one of the main reasons why new MARTA CEO Keith Parker has been privatizing many non transit-operating functions while getting MARTA into a budget surplus...to help the troubled transit agency fend-off the growing threat of takeover and potentially full-privatization by increasingly impatient transit-supporting Republican state legislators in the politically-dominant Northern suburbs (particularly in transit-hungry North Fulton and North DeKalb counties, but also in Cobb and Gwinnett counties to a lesser extent).
Quote:
Originally Posted by smb90
This guy really said that he didn't support rail, but supports a $10 to $15 bus fare. That's ridiculous IMO
Depending on how far one is riding, a $10-$15 transit fare is nowhere near as far-fetched as it may seem in the Atlanta metro region where a flat-rate fare of $2.50 is conventional on MARTA (no matter how far the ride) and transit fares in general don't exceed more than $4.00 one-way (on GRTA Xpress commuter buses).
There are multiple rail-based transit systems where one-way fares exceed $10 for longer-distance trips under a distance-based/zone-based graduated fare structure so that much more of the costs of operations and maintenance can be covered by farebox revenues.
This is particularly the case on Northern California's BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) which covers 78% of its operating costs with a combination distance-based/zone-based fare structure that charges as much as $11.05 for a one-way trip of roughly 48 miles between the Pittsburg/Bay Point BART Station in the Sacramento River Valley Delta area of the East Bay region and the San Francisco International Airport.
This is also the case with New York's Long Island Railroad (LIRR) which utilizes a combination distance-based/zone-based fare structure that charges as much as $33.00 for a one-way trip of roughly 120 miles between Penn Station in Midtown Manhattan and Montauk out on the eastern tip of Long Island, a distance that is similar to the distance between Atlanta and Chattanooga.
Between $10-$15 is what a one-way ride would cost between the Atlanta Airport and outlying locations like Acworth and Cumming if high-capacity passenger transit links existed between the Atlanta Airport and those locations and utilized a distance-based fare structure that charged $0.30 per-mile ($12.60 for a one-way trip of 42 miles between the Atlanta Airport and Acworth; and $14.70 for a one-way trip of 49 miles between the Atlanta Airport and Cumming).
If Cobb were to join MARTA, the price will be 1/2 the seats on the MARTA Board. Also MARTA does not now run any 24 hour service. We would want 24 hour service to South Cobb and downtown Marietta from downtown/Midtown Atlanta.
There is no way that Cobb needs 24 hour service other than if it was for a HRT line connecting it to the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
Then keep the heavy rail in the city limits. I used to really want rail in the suburbs, but realized, we don't need it there. If people choose to be in traffic, so be it. Create more lines in the city limits and densify neighborhoods around these lines. 20 more miles of heavy rail in the city limits would go a long way in improving this city's transit.
For the most part I agree with this. Let the burbs keep suffering if they want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadtrip75
LOL, Clayton County has the demographics to use MARTA while North Fulton funds it.
An estimated 49 million in revenue would pay for bus AND rail service annually within Clayton. Either way it would all go into the same pot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Outside of a line up 75 to Cumberland with a right turn on 285 back to Sandy Springs and then to Doraville, Heavy Rail is not the answer for Cobb.
Commuter Rail. Focus on that folks...
HRT is definitely needed along the Cobb Pkwy/I-75 stretch. But as I stated earlier I agree with keeping rail within the city for the most part other than an extension to Cobb. I do support the other rail expansions planned.
There is no way that Cobb needs 24 hour service other than if it was for a HRT line connecting it to the city.
For the most part I agree with this. Let the burbs keep suffering if they want.
An estimated 49 million in revenue would pay for bus AND rail service annually within Clayton. Either way it would all go into the same pot.
HRT is definitely needed along the Cobb Pkwy/I-75 stretch. But as I stated earlier I agree with keeping rail within the city for the most part other than an extension to Cobb. I do support the other rail expansions planned.
If Clayton got MARTA, they could have a 1% sales tax. That's how Fulton and DeKalb have been funding MARTA. And as you said, Clayton's part wouldn't be that expensive.
State Representative Earl Ehrhart didn't say that he doesn't support rail, he said that he doesn't support MARTA rail to Cobb County and he said that he does not support publicly-funded transit, which is appropriate considering that there is a move afoot by transit-supporting moderate conservatives in the Georgia State Legislature (led by moderate Republicans in transit-hungry North Fulton and North DeKalb counties) to takeover, overhaul and privatize most or all of MARTA (particularly the valuable north-south lines that connect directly to the airport) so that passenger rail transit service linking with the airport can be expanded to increasingly severely-congested and transit-hungry areas north of the I-285 Top End Perimeter in North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett counties.
The current political calculus is that conservative suburbanites in historically transit-averse areas would be far more likely to accept the idea of extending high-capacity passenger rail transit into areas like North Fulton, Cobb and Gwinnett counties if the region's main transit service/agency is controlled by conservative Republicans in the politically-dominant Northern suburbs (and operated by private interests) than those conservative suburbanites would be if the transit agency remain in control of liberal Democrats in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties.
The increasing desire of politically-dominant conservative North Metro suburbanites to take control of MARTA away from left-leaning urbanites in Central and South Fulton and DeKalb counties is one of the main reasons why new MARTA CEO Keith Parker has been privatizing many non transit-operating functions while getting MARTA into a budget surplus...to help the troubled transit agency fend-off the growing threat of takeover and potentially full-privatization by increasingly impatient transit-supporting Republican state legislators in the politically-dominant Northern suburbs (particularly in transit-hungry North Fulton and North DeKalb counties, but also in Cobb and Gwinnett counties to a lesser extent).
Depending on how far one is riding, a $10-$15 transit fare is nowhere near as far-fetched as it may seem in the Atlanta metro region where a flat-rate fare of $2.50 is conventional on MARTA (no matter how far the ride) and transit fares in general don't exceed more than $4.00 one-way (on GRTA Xpress commuter buses).
There are multiple rail-based transit systems where one-way fares exceed $10 for longer-distance trips under a distance-based/zone-based graduated fare structure so that much more of the costs of operations and maintenance can be covered by farebox revenues.
This is particularly the case on Northern California's BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) which covers 78% of its operating costs with a combination distance-based/zone-based fare structure that charges as much as $11.05 for a one-way trip of roughly 48 miles between the Pittsburg/Bay Point BART Station in the Sacramento River Valley Delta area of the East Bay region and the San Francisco International Airport.
This is also the case with New York's Long Island Railroad (LIRR) which utilizes a combination distance-based/zone-based fare structure that charges as much as $33.00 for a one-way trip of roughly 120 miles between Penn Station in Midtown Manhattan and Montauk out on the eastern tip of Long Island, a distance that is similar to the distance between Atlanta and Chattanooga.
Between $10-$15 is what a one-way ride would cost between the Atlanta Airport and outlying locations like Acworth and Cumming if high-capacity passenger transit links existed between the Atlanta Airport and those locations and utilized a distance-based fare structure that charged $0.30 per-mile ($12.60 for a one-way trip of 42 miles between the Atlanta Airport and Acworth; and $14.70 for a one-way trip of 49 miles between the Atlanta Airport and Cumming).
That is the same guy that had his whole sub division redrawn from McEachern to Hillgrove high schools because he doesn't like his kids going to school with black kids. So anything he says has no credibility anyway. Not with me. He is just somebody I have to put up with.
If Clayton got MARTA, they could have a 1% sales tax. That's how Fulton and DeKalb have been funding MARTA. And as you said, Clayton's part wouldn't be that expensive.
Clayton would be fine with bus service. We don't need a train to Riverdale. Don't they have bus service there now?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
