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Old 04-16-2016, 08:25 AM
 
3,094 posts, read 1,620,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoicTao View Post
Right... Something will get built without the TAD. Like a Fuqua car-centric strip mall. This Superintendent doesn't get the big picture.
Considering that a chunk of the TAD would be for building a road to Peachtree, car centricity is not really solved with this.

This project, like any other project, is speculative. Sure, if it successfully moves forward it would generate plenty of revenue. But nothing is guaranteed.

If your child's school said to you "We are giving up our share of income for the next 20 years so that Acme Development Corporation, a for-profit entity, can use it. Sorry, your kid will have to make do with whatever resources we can scrounge up to educate him. But look at the bright side: in 20 years we will bring in a BUNDLE and will have all sorts of cash to do cool things with!"

Sorry, but no development should be built on the backs of our kids' education. I am willing to forego some other public services to free up money to create a good development, but not school funding.

_____

I have to wonder if part of the capital partners' feet dragging may be due to new Basel III rules recently implemented that put a much, much higher risk weight on HVCRE projects, which this would certainly be one. Their capital reserves will have to be higher, among other things. A lot of banks are slowing the brakes while they figure out what this all means.

Now, why would such stiffer regulation be required if HVCRE/ADC lending were a sure thing?
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Old 04-16-2016, 09:13 AM
 
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Except that would be connecting the development to the Doravilla MARTA station.

Again, you are being misleading about schools giving money to developers. That is not how TADs work.

If you don't want schools involved & profiting from private developments then you need to find another way to fund schools.

It's like Six Flags saying "I am in the business of running theme parks, not setting ticket prices, so I won't support a 10%-off discount to attract more total revenue."
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Except that would be connecting the development to the Doravilla MARTA station.
You are referring to the connection from the Marta station to the development. Last I heard that is supposed to be a tunnel. I'm referring to the road that is also part of the plan connecting the west side of the development to Peachtree Industrial.


Again, you are being misleading about schools giving money to developers. That is not how TADs work.

[/quote]

If a private investor comes in, pays for the development without a TAD, and the property tax revenue goes up in year 1, the school district gets its share of the increase.

If a TAD is used to pay for the development, and the property tax revenue goes up in year 1, the increased revenue is used to pay off the development bonds. The school's revenue is the same as it was pre-development. (I have not seen a PILOT attached to this project.)

So yes, it is as if the school is agreeing to give up their share of the goods this property can bring so the developer can be paid...rather than the financier just funding it BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT FINANCIERS DO.

TADS have their place but it seems that their existence has created an expectation that shouldn't exist.

Look, we don't have to agree. But the fact is that anyone who believes that the the fate of this project is TRULY only in the hands of the school district is being mislead.

Last edited by wasel; 04-16-2016 at 10:41 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 04-16-2016, 03:03 PM
 
10,457 posts, read 7,437,539 times
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You are making a very false assumption that without the TAD the same amount of development and land value / tax base increase will happen.

It's like saying "I don't want to discount tickets by 10% to attract 30% more customers because I don't want to lose that 10%"
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Old 04-16-2016, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,537 posts, read 7,613,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
You are referring to the connection from the Marta station to the development. Last I heard that is supposed to be a tunnel. I'm referring to the road that is also part of the plan connecting the west side of the development to Peachtree Industrial.


Again, you are being misleading about schools giving money to developers. That is not how TADs work.
If a private investor comes in, pays for the development without a TAD, and the property tax revenue goes up in year 1, the school district gets its share of the increase.

If a TAD is used to pay for the development, and the property tax revenue goes up in year 1, the increased revenue is used to pay off the development bonds. The school's revenue is the same as it was pre-development. (I have not seen a PILOT attached to this project.)

So yes, it is as if the school is agreeing to give up their share of the goods this property can bring so the developer can be paid...rather than the financier just funding it BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT FINANCIERS DO.

TADS have their place but it seems that their existence has created an expectation that shouldn't exist.

Look, we don't have to agree. But the fact is that anyone who believes that the the fate of this project is TRULY only in the hands of the school district is being mislead.[/quote]

The problem is you're assuming something and forgetting something at once.

You're assuming the development will be the same, it won't. There is always a reciprocal relationship between public and private investment needed to support large developments. You also seem to be assuming that the TAD pays for the private part of the development itself, it doesn't.

If the development happens without a TAD, besides being far smaller, will still put a strain on the government to fund the needed improvements around the area to support it. (ie. additional cross-roads, new bridges, sewage capacity.

The TAD primarily helps pay those cost, not for the actual private part of the development... but in doing so it sets up the public infrastructure to make much more intensive private development possible that will bring much higher values over time. This means once the TAD period is up there is tax digest windfall for the county and school board.

A financier would actually be funding the actual building of the whole development, so that is not what a TAD or the schools would be doing.

If you look at the Beltline, it would have never gotten the amount of development at the intensities and value it has without something to help drive demand to the area. Public infrastructure that makes the area desirable for high-intensive uses that didn't exist before.

If you look at Atlantic Station, nothing that intensive would have ever been built there if it was piece-mealed together through smaller developments and no 17th st bridge to connect to Midtown and the freeways. Of course, once those were built and the pollution was cleaned, it became a high-end development for intensive land uses that added hundreds of millions if not over a billion to the property tax digest of Atlanta. You wouldn't see high rise condos and office towers without that expensive public infrastructure that had to be built to support it.

Now admittedly this can't be something we ever do county wide or at any little development, but to a master planned large scale brownfield site where lots of changes have to be made to create an extremely valuable urban neighborhood that wouldn't be realized otherwise.
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Old 04-18-2016, 01:54 AM
 
Location: atlanta
4,176 posts, read 4,831,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
But it doesn't mean they get less taxes. They get the same amount of taxes; and the new taxes from the increase in value at the site go to fund infrastructure improvements at the site.

Since we pay for schools with property taxes, they will be involved with land development one way or another. It makes sense for superintendants to want to ensue a stable revenue stream for the future. Not to mention even I would hope they would also want to work together to make the community they are in better, which benefits schools too.

If you don't want schools involved in land development, how are you proposing we pay for schools?
sorry, i was under the impression that establishing a TAD would impact school revenues. what's with all the opposition, then? how does the math on this come out?
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Old 04-18-2016, 04:13 AM
 
8,041 posts, read 4,376,042 times
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Re. Tax revenues. It is not like Dekalb officials at any level have shown they are good stewards of tax revenues. Ya' know.

The tax revenues might as well be redirected to an entity that will create jobs, whether from construction and development, or ongoing maintenance and operation of whatever development would get built.
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Old 04-18-2016, 06:34 AM
 
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See Beltline and Atlanta Public Schools:

But the school board—the one that was in place before the cheating scandal broke—didn’t want to forgo tax receipts to help the BeltLine. In order to get the board’s buy-in, the city agreed to pay a flat amount to the school system that ultimately ended up being $162 million. At the time of the deal, the TAD was projected to bring in 60 percent of the BeltLine’s funding—a rosy outlook based on then-rising property values shortly before the Great Recession. But when the market tanked, it became clear that the TAD would only pay for a third of the BeltLine’s construction costs. What had looked like a good deal for everyone had turned rotten for the BeltLine—and the city.

In late 2013, the city made an initial $1.95 million payment to APS. But the following year, the city failed to make an expected $6.75 million payment, and withheld the next year’s payment as well.


Refer to What happens now that the Atlanta BeltLine dispute is over? - Atlanta Magazine

Now, before anyone get their panties in a wad, THE BELTLINE IS A POSITIVE THING FOR THE CITY. I'm not saying the Beltline shouldn't happen. But any development project is speculative and I don't believe the school system should be a funding partner, directly or indirectly.
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Old 04-18-2016, 09:40 AM
 
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wasel - You do seem to be saying the Beltline (And many other projects like Atlantic Station) shouldn't happen. Or at least you want to cut off it's funding.

In fact, those problems you highlight with the Beltline TAD are due to APS, not wanting to contribute to the TAD. APS demanded flat dollar amount payments to reimburse their part of the TAD.

If APS had let the TAD function as designed there would not have been any need for payments and APS could have continued to receive the same amount of revenue as before.

So again, if you don't want to schools involved in developments then you shouldn't fund them with property taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
sorry, i was under the impression that establishing a TAD would impact school revenues. what's with all the opposition, then? how does the math on this come out?
Any development or lack of development will impact school revenues. The idea of a TAD is that the government / school still gets the same amount of revenue as before, but any increase in value that the development brings goes to fund infrastructure around that development for a set number of years.
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Old 04-18-2016, 09:44 AM
 
29,143 posts, read 26,087,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
Now, before anyone get their panties in a wad, THE BELTLINE IS A POSITIVE THING FOR THE CITY. I'm not saying the Beltline shouldn't happen. But any development project is speculative and I don't believe the school system should be a funding partner, directly or indirectly.
I have to agree. The costs of a school system are constant and they have to be paid in real time. They can't wait on real estate boom-and-bust cycles or speculative investments.
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