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The idea of a limited stop express train is to bypass the slow local stop part, so points of interest is not important - it's to get people to the North end perimeter as fast as possible. There are connections to MARTA for that. Thinking about having it need to actually travel through Atlanta, other than having connections into Atlanta is just sticking to an antiquated wheel-spoke view of metro ATL.
Plus, for convention business, the North end metro has its own convention business. Why not give it a fast connection like the downtown convention center does?
That's a good point that the commercial districts of the Top End Perimeter (Perimeter Center and Cumberland/Galleria) have their own convention business.
But Downtown Atlanta has both a major convention and TOURISM industry that is one of the largest on in the entire Western Hemisphere and is likely larger than both Perimeter Center and Cumberland combined at this point in time.
(...The Georgia World Congress Center is the 4th-largest convention center on the North American continent while Downtown Atlanta's massive convention and tourism business is a massive revenue generator for the entire Atlanta metro region and the entire state of Georgia.)
Any stop on a high-speed express regional intercity or interurban train between two points like Downtown Chattanooga and the Atlanta Airport absolutely must include a stop at the future MMPT at Five Points in Downtown Atlanta because Downtown Atlanta will be a very-major destination for travelers from Chattanooga, TN and Northwest Georgia.
You make an excellent point that the idea of a limited stop express train is to bypass less-busy and lower-use local stops that will slow the train down.
But even on limited-stop express trains, massive points-of-interest like those in Downtown Atlanta and Central Atlanta are very-critically important because those massive points-of-interest generate massive amounts of ridership and revenue on a high-capacity transit line.
Even on limited-stop express trains, there still needs to be enough stops at the absolute busiest train stations to generate ridership and revenue along the route.
Because a high-speed ATL Airport-Chattanooga train line would basically be like a high-speed regional commuter rail line, the ATL Airport and Chattanooga would not be the only stops on the line.
In addition to the ATL Airport and Downtown Chattanooga, an ATL Airport-Chattanooga express passenger rail line would most likely also primarily include stops in Downtown Atlanta, Cumberland, Marietta, Cartersville, Calhoun, Dalton and Chattanooga Airport.
...With about 9 stops, an ATL Airport-Chattanooga express line would have a reduced number of stops but would still include just enough stops to generate an acceptable amount of operating revenue.
The aforementioned stops also would not be the only stops on the line as there would also be multiple other stops (particularly less-busy stops in smaller communities) that would be served by more localized regional commuter, intercity and interurban train service along an ATL Airport-Downtown Chattanooga regional intercity/interurban high-capacity passenger rail transit corridor.
(...Stops in smaller communities would get less passenger rail service while stops in larger communities would get more passenger service as not every train would stop at every community along a high-capacity passenger rail transit corridor.)
One must also keep-in-mind that like the ATL Airport and Cumberland areas, Downtown Atlanta is also still the site of a major employment hub in the Atlanta region and in the state of Georgia (...most state government offices and most regional federal offices as well as many major office buildings and some of the largest hotels in the Southeastern U.S. are located in Downtown Atlanta).
The fact that Downtown Atlanta remains a major hub of employment and business for the Atlanta region and the state of Georgia as well as the fact that Downtown Atlanta is the site of a fast-growing major research university (the 32,000-student Georgia State University) further necessitates the critical need that Downtown Atlanta be a stop on EVERY limited-stop express high-speed passenger train that travels between the Atlanta Airport and Chattanooga.
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Originally Posted by netdragon
The main problem with it going through ATL is ROW acquisition costs. Another problem is aesthetics, and another is that it's a bit redundant. Even if just sidings were built on MARTA for express to pass, the computer systems would probably need to be updated, stations would need to be rebuilt or reconfigured, and ROW acquisition would probably still have to occur.
I agree that constructing new high-speed passenger rail track through Central Atlanta will be costly.
But constructing new passenger rail track of any kind is going to be costly where ever it is built through the Atlanta metro region and North Georgia because of the amount of existing development that will have to be contended with when building-out a new passenger rail transit network.
Because of the very-heavy amount of existing development, there is going to be the need for lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of tunneling so as to not disturb existing development on the surface and potentially turn public opinion against passenger rail expansion in what can often be an Atlanta metro region that can be highly-averse to the concept of transportation infrastructure expansion....Particularly if said transportation infrastructure expansion disturbs existing development and/or green space.
There's no way for us to get around the pending multibillion-dollar cost of high-capacity passenger rail expansion as existing transportation funding sources are about completely-depleted of cash and we don't even have the modest funds to even attempt to expand transit on the dirt-cheap...
...Which is why procuring funding from robust multiple sources (particularly real estate development revenues, but also Value Capture taxes, distance-based fares and major sponsorships) is so critically-important to future improvements, upgrades and expansions of transit in the mobility-challenged Atlanta region.
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Originally Posted by netdragon
I wouldn't worry so much about consistent stock. Even if it started out that way, it could diverge. That happens quite often. It's better to build what's appropriate for the area. Plus, the MARTA train stock is a bit outdated, anyway.
This is an excellent point as any future improvements, upgrades and expansions of high-capacity rail transit is absolutely going to require the procurement of new train stock.
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Originally Posted by netdragon
MattCW is right that using light rail with a third rail could at least make the track consistent regardless of what train stock is used.
Hower, a more proactive thinking about keeping things consistent is considering that the mag-lev or high-speed rail may go all the way out to Chattanooga and other things like we've discussed. So I think there's really no "preferred" choice other than where you wouldn't want them to transfer. I figure if they are going from the airport to Chattanooga, you wouldn't want them to transfer at all.
This is an excellent point, also as both local-regional trains and express trains between the Atlanta Airport and outlying cities like Chattanooga, TN; Asheville, NC; Greenville, SC; Athens, GA, etc, should be direct routes to and from the Atlanta Airport by way of the MMPT at Five Points in Downtown Atlanta....This is so that two major and massively-important regional activity centers like the Atlanta Airport and Downtown Atlanta are abundantly well-served by train service.
I agree that constructing new high-speed passenger rail track through Central Atlanta will be costly.
But constructing new passenger rail track of any kind is going to be costly where ever it is built through the Atlanta metro region and North Georgia because of the amount of existing development that will have to be contended with when building-out a new passenger rail transit network.
Slightly off topic but this reminds me of how much chaos MARTA construction caused. I wonder if people would put up with it today.
This is BART but many of the construction scenes (especially toward the end) are similar to what we had to deal with here in the ATL.
MARTA really was quite an undertaking for Atlanta. It is very hard to imagine something like it getting done today:
So the midtown tunnel was built using cut and cover method? Never would have thought that, I know peachtree center and downtown tunnel was built using a TBM.
So the midtown tunnel was built using cut and cover method? Never would have thought that, I know peachtree center and downtown tunnel was built using a TBM.
Indeed. By the late 70s Midtown between the West Peachtree and Cypress corridors was pretty devoid of substantial development, so it wasn't too difficult for MARTA to do cut-and-cover between Civic Center and Arts Center.
Any stop on a high-speed express regional intercity or interurban train between two points like Downtown Chattanooga and the Atlanta Airport absolutely must include a stop at the future MMPT at Five Points in Downtown Atlanta because Downtown Atlanta will be a very-major destination for travelers from Chattanooga, TN and Northwest Georgia.
If this is necessary, I-20 probably has more room to squeeze a spur through for such a connection and then people could connect downtown if they want on the same fare. It'd be a tight squeeze on the parts of I-20 where MARTA already runs along the highway, but mag-lev can probably be elevated over the existing MARTA R.O.W in the parts that it runs on ground-level along the highway. Then, people would have the option to ride MARTA to MMPT and visit downtown/midtown, then hopping on the mag-lev OR they could take the mag-lev directly if they didn't intend to visit Atlanta downtown/midtown. If they wanted to visit downtown, midtown, and Buckhead, and were going to Cumberland or Chattanooga as their final destination, then they'd hop on the mag-lev in Perimeter Center.
If this is necessary, I-20 probably has more room to squeeze a spur through for such a connection and then people could connect downtown if they want on the same fare. It'd be a tight squeeze on the parts of I-20 where MARTA already runs along the highway, but mag-lev can probably be elevated over the existing MARTA R.O.W in the parts that it runs on ground-level along the highway. Then, people would have the option to ride MARTA to MMPT and visit downtown/midtown, then hopping on the mag-lev OR they could take the mag-lev directly if they didn't intend to visit Atlanta downtown/midtown. If they wanted to visit downtown, midtown, and Buckhead, and were going to Cumberland or Chattanooga as their final destination, then they'd hop on the mag-lev in Perimeter Center.
If we're talking about operating limited-stop express train service between the Atlanta Airport and Chattanooga by way of such major regional activity centers as Downtown Atlanta and the Cumberland/Galleria area, the I-285 West Wall and I-20 West right-of-ways likely are not good options to establish express train connectivity between such major commercial districts as Downtown and Cumberland...
...That's because the I-285 West Wall and I-20 West right-of-ways is not the shortest and most-direct route between two major regional activity centers and commercial districts such as Downtown Atlanta and Cumberland.
With the Cumberland commercial district desperately wanting to be directly interconnected with the extremely-lucrative convention, tourism, corporate and hotel business in Downtown Atlanta by way of a high-capacity mass transit link directly between the Cumberland and Downtown areas, the best right-of-ways for direct limited-stop express train service between the Cumberland and Downtown ATL districts would be either the along the I-75 Northwest or the CSX/Western & Atlantic right-of-ways that have a much more direct routing between the Downtown Atlanta and Cumberland commercial districts.
(...Cobb County's acquisition of the Atlanta Braves is intended as a way to help the Cumberland area tap directly into the massive convention, tourism, corporate and hotel business of Downtown ATL by using the Braves to lure conventioneers and visitors from Downtown to Major League Baseball games in Cumberland...
...Cobb County business leaders also want the Cumberland area to become an area where hotel and convention business spills over from Downtown when Downtown hotels are booked to capacity during such major events like the NCAA College Basketball Final Four, major College Football Championship, postseason Bowl and regular season classic games, the Super Bowl, etc...
...Which is why it is important that passengers be able to travel on express trains between the Downtown ATL and Cumberland areas using the shortest most-direct routing possible on one train without having to transfer...
...Because tens-of-thousands of passengers will be traveling directly between the new Braves' stadium, hotels, conventions and shopping in the Cumberland area and the massive hotel, convention and tourism district in Downtown Atlanta on a daily basis throughout most of the year.)
Using either the I-75 NW or the CSX/W&A right-of-ways for express train service means that the tens-of-thousands of passengers that will be traveling between the Downtown and Cumberland commercial districts will be able to do so by traveling on express trains for one stop (board the express train at the MMPT in Downtown Atlanta and exit the express train one stop later in the Cumberland area).
Having only one express train stop separating the Downtown Atlanta and Cumberland commercial districts on the most-direct routing between the two major commercial districts will be a massive ridership and revenue generator for any express train line connecting the ATL Airport and Downtown Chattanooga...which in-turn will only help to make the service much more massively-popular in the court of public opinion and financially-viable and financially-successful over the long-term.
Using the I-75 NW and/or the CSX/W&A right-of-ways for express train service will also allow for the use of chartered train service between the Downtown ATL and Cumberland areas if so desired, where large private groups could reserve train cars for private passenger train service between Downtown Atlanta and the Cumberland area...
...So let's say a large private group with tens-of-thousands of members was having a major convention over multiple days at the Georgia World Congress Center during the spring or summer months and wanted to treat their members to a Major League Baseball game at the new Braves' stadium in the Cumberland area for part of one of the days of the convention....And let's say that said large private group wanted to arrange private transportation for their tens-of-thousands of conventioneers between the GWCC in Downtown ATL and the new Braves' stadium...
With direct express train service between Downtown ATL and Cumberland by way of the CSX/W&A and/or I-75 right-of-ways, if so desired, the large private group could charter one or more trains to pick up its conventioneers at a station at the Georgia World Congress Center and transport them direct by passenger rail to a station in the Cumberland area where conventioneers would exit the trains and board chartered buses to ride the rest of the way to the new Braves' stadium.
The same could also work in reverse where private groups could charter buses and trains to travel directly from hotels and conventions in the Cumberland area to special major events in Downtown Atlanta (like during NCAA College Basketball Final Fours, major College Football games, Super Bowls, major soccer games and even NFL Falcons and NBA Hawks' games, etc).
Either way, having two major commercial districts like Downtown Atlanta and Cumberland connected with direct one-stop express high-capacity passenger rail service by way of either the I-75 NW and/or CSX/W&A right-of-ways will be a major generator of ridership and revenue.
Most importantly, having two major commercial districts like Downtown Atlanta and Cumberland connected with direct one-stop express high-capacity passenger rail service by way of either the I-75 NW and/or CSX/W&A right-of-ways will be popular with the public in a large major metro region where transit desperately needs to become much more-popular with the public so that the area continues to be highly-viable from both an economic and quality-of-life standpoint.
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