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Old 12-11-2014, 12:22 PM
 
460 posts, read 356,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Detroit and Philadelphia, which are about the same geographical size as Atlanta, have both had around 2,000,000 residents within their borders. That includes a number of areas with single family homes on large, leafy lots.

There's tons of space to redevelop within the city of Atlanta proper, if the desire to do so should arise.
58% of Philadelphia's housing stock are 1-unit attached houses (row houses) and 1-unit detached houses (large, leafy lots) make up less than 10% of Philadelphia's housing stock. A large portion of Philadelphia is built on a tightly packed street grid featuring very narrow streets and short blocks, which were built prior to widespread automobile ownership. Atlanta has none of those characteristics currently and there is no support or demand for redeveloping Atlanta to accommodate the density Philadelphia has with the somewhat more than 1.5 million currently or the 2 million residents it once had.

Density in Atlanta should increase over time, but I don't expect that desire or political feasibility is going to arise for the redevelopment that would be required for Atlanta to have the density that Philadelphia has or that Detroit once had.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BR Valentine View Post
58% of Philadelphia's housing stock are 1-unit attached houses (row houses) and 1-unit detached houses (large, leafy lots) make up less than 10% of Philadelphia's housing stock. A large portion of Philadelphia is built on a tightly packed street grid featuring very narrow streets and short blocks, which were built prior to widespread automobile ownership. Atlanta has none of those characteristics currently and there is no support or demand for redeveloping Atlanta to accommodate the density Philadelphia has with the somewhat more than 1.5 million currently or the 2 million residents it once had.

Density in Atlanta should increase over time, but I don't expect that desire or political feasibility is going to arise for the redevelopment that would be required for Atlanta to have the density that Philadelphia has or that Detroit once had.
I agree. I'm just noting that Atlanta isn't really constrained by lack of land. If there's demand for more density there are plenty of areas that could be redeveloped.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BR Valentine View Post
Density in Atlanta should increase over time, but I don't expect that desire or political feasibility is going to arise for the redevelopment that would be required for Atlanta to have the density that Philadelphia has or that Detroit once had.
You will be surprised. The only thing that stays the same in Atlanta is "change".
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:40 PM
 
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You're still talking over a century before you get to 12k ppsm densities in Atlanta unless a mega boom occurs in which you're seeing 50k people increases per year in Atlanta. That would require 20k units at the minimum per year being built. The urban landscape would change dramatically. It's unlikely.

Last edited by Ant131531; 12-11-2014 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
Detroit and Philadelphia, which are about the same geographical size as Atlanta, have both had around 2,000,000 residents within their borders. That includes a number of areas with single family homes on large, leafy lots.

There's tons of space to redevelop within the city of Atlanta proper, if the desire to do so should arise.
Arjay, I'd love to agree with you but the harsh reality comes down to the major issue I keep trying to raise.

It comes down to zoning, ability to adapt change, historical preservation, etc...

Atlanta is not zoned nearly as dense as either of those two cities. It has much to do with the era in which they were built.

Now this coming from you, in particular, I will not let you forget that we have had debates at great lengths over single family neighborhoods needing to adapt and change in even just a few key places. You were one of the many adamantly against it.

You can't have it both ways.... That is the harsh reality those of you moving into these single family neighborhoods ITP have to face.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
You will be surprised. The only thing that stays the same in Atlanta is "change".
I doubt that. I expect the city's population and density to increase in the coming years. However, Atlanta isn't going to have Philadelphia's current population density in your lifetime. Could it happen over more than a century? Sure. Will it happen over a 100+ year time span? IDK and the probability of accurate prediction over such a long period of time is very low.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro View Post
Arjay, I'd love to agree with you but the harsh reality comes down to the major issue I keep trying to raise.

It comes down to zoning, ability to adapt change, historical preservation, etc...

Atlanta is not zoned nearly as dense as either of those two cities. It has much to do with the era in which they were built.

Now this coming from you, in particular, I will not let you forget that we have had debates at great lengths over single family neighborhoods needing to adapt and change in even just a few key places. You were one of the many adamantly against it.

You can't have it both ways.... That is the harsh reality those of you moving into these single family neighborhoods ITP have to face.
You always have to look at the specifics, cw.

We were talking about Peachtree Park, which is one of the top neighborhoods in the city. It has tons of young people, is meticulously maintained and has rising home values and a very strong tax base. It would be nuts to tear up a neighborhood like that at this point in time. They are carefully planned and are adjacent to three SPI's where high density is promoted and concentrated.

On the other hand, we have many intown areas that have been emptying out and which have lots of underutilized land. They're ripe for redevelopment.

And I agree, of course, that things can change over time. Maybe someday neighborhoods like Virginia Highland and Peachtree Park will fall into decline and the residents will head for the hills. If that happens, then it may be appropriate to revisit the issue and consider redeveloping them for different uses. But that isn't the case now.
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BR Valentine View Post
I doubt that. I expect the city's population and density to increase in the coming years. However, Atlanta isn't going to have Philadelphia's current population density in your lifetime. Could it happen over more than a century? Sure. Will it happen over a 100+ year time span? IDK and the probability of accurate prediction over such a long period of time is very low.
Atlanta's population density in 1940 was ~9,000 ppsm (source). With the major population shifts that are happening now and game changers like ubiquitous self driving taxis on the horizon it is very plausible to see Atlanta's core returning to its past density in a few decades.

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Old 12-11-2014, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,911 posts, read 9,596,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Atlanta's population density in 1940 was ~9,000 ppsm (source). With the major population shifts that are happening now and game changers like ubiquitous self driving taxis on the horizon it is very plausible to see Atlanta's core returning to its past density in a few decades.
This density was prior to Atlanta's annexing Buckhead and other less dense areas to the south and west (see the map Chiatldal posted earlier). The core was much more dense and built along the lines of older northern and eastern cities mentioned by others earlier. The big change? the advent of the affordable automobile.

We have discussed this continuously, but the automobile is so much a part of the American life, it would take something catastrophic that would remove it as an option for the majority of Americans for the inner city density to reach what many are wanting. Until that day, it simply won't happen. The city will get denser, yes. Suburban areas will get denser as well. But for a wholesale change to the core being what the Philadelphias and Detroits once were... well, I just can't see that happening in any of our lifetimes.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:31 AM
 
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OK let try this again.... using this again... There seem to be a misconception that Atlanta has a lack of ability to increase urbanity you would have tear up the leafy neighborhoods that's untrue.

Quote:
Atlanta and the region doesn't need density everywhere, it contradict density is a small populated area. Because most of the region is unsuitable for density it will only place greater emphasis on the place that can.

Let say the city of Atlanta does only grow by 250,000 don't know how true those numbers are but it doesn't matter, The only place capable of gaining that is Downtown, Midtown, West Midtown, O4W, Vine city, Along The Beltline.... plus Buckhead


In 1950 Atlanta 331,314 in 36.9 sq mi, Beside Buckhead The area mention above would be smaller like 60% - 70% the size of 1950's Atlanta. But would have a much greater Density... It's adding the current population of those places above plus most of that 250,000. Think about it.



History of Atlanta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Site created by Springlake Sports LLC - BeltLine Community Kickoff
Minneapolis now is... 400,070 in 54.9 sq mi and it's pretty urban...
DC now is only......... 646,449 in 61.4 sq mi and it's pretty urban...
1950 ATL was.......... 331,314 in 36.9 sq mi

OK if we know most of the leafy outer neighborhoods with giant lofts can't be redeveloped.. This means beside Buckhead Lenox and Lindbergh area most that "250,000" that Atlanta going to gain is going to go in Atlanta's core..... Atlanta could end up with over 400,000 in 36.9 sq mi.

400,000 in 36.9 sq mi is comparable density to DC, and this very possible because Atlanta was already 331,314 in 36.9 sq mi in 1950. In The 1950 there was wasn't that many multi family units. Besides losing a few neighborhoods to the interstate during urban renewal of the 50's most of the infrastructure for that density still exist. It's Single family nighborhoods. Most American major cities from New Orleans to Cleveland is made of dense single family neighborhoods.




Besides Ansley park, parts of Iman Park most of intown Atlanta is bulit fairly dense single family homes, very tiny lot this how that 331,314 in 36.9 sq mi happen.

You don't have to break the zoning code of Old Forth Ward, Grant Park, Virginia-highland, Vine City, Cabbagetown etc, and build high and mid rises that's unnecessary. What happen is some neighborhoods went though a decline. And they are not being utilize to their former glory. Not just vacancies but homes that were once there are now empty glass lot. Atlanta core probably would gain a significantly just by restoring neighborhoods.


http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/..._dMNMdJr-M.jpg


https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3877/...aa4f7e08_o.jpg

This why Atlanta neighborhoods are worry about preservation and has strict zoning, Atlanta is not Houston this sudden't be happening.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/...90b38b09_b.jpg

Anyway outside of single family home neighborhoods there's a lot can be done on wasted brownfield areas,
I don't some of yall understand how much waste brownfield space Atlanta has.

First off The Beltline.. Is a huge redevelopment project it will have 10 subarea each with a park and area for development....

http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs...36.49%20PM.png


This is just a rendering for what they're going for with subarea 2 on the south end, this is completely brownfield, All of the beltline is in between neighborhoods

Brownfield

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/...6cc8a01f_b.jpg

So much of it, Atlanta has plenty of areas to redevelop before even thinking about Changing historic neighborhoods.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/...ca8b5d51_b.jpg
West Midtown West Midtown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Once again the brownfield space and the redevelopment of warehouses and etc. I don't expect high rises but I would be surprise if Mid rises come to this area.


http://www.waltoncommunities.com/ima...w.jpg?sfvrsn=2


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/...d5f79af2_b.jpg

Marta is redeveloping the areas around 10 Marta Station, it's their property

http://www.atlantadowntown.com/_file...-site-crop.jpg

The redevelopment of areas formerly public housing

http://www.praxis3.com/p3/wp-content...itol-II-01.jpg

Next Downtown and Midtown, obliviously has lot of potential for urban development, Apartments, Condos and etc..


http://dilemmaxdotnet.files.wordpres...anta-site6.jpg

Maybe not by 2040 but Atlanta does have the areas, and capability to go beyond 700,000, without messing with the character of leafy neighborhoods. The Key word is capability.

Also density doesn't equal just Philly, LA is dense. Nor does it equal quality Atlanta will never be built like Philly Atlanta is too modern like LA, But the way the city will grow and densify will be pretty unique and increase the quality of life. That more of what I'm looking at and it's more important.

Last edited by chiatldal; 12-12-2014 at 01:51 AM..
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